Pollster.com

These are rather more believable NC numbers. NC, from Obama's perspective, is a slightly harder Virginia. If he gets to where he wins Virginia by 3-4 points, NC starts being a probable pickup as well. Given that we've seen him one point down in VA most recently, 4 points in NC seems totally logical.

After Beverly Perdue's creepy and bad performance in the gubernatorial debate last night, her numbers should plummet even more. Elizabeth Dole is finally back up on TV here in NC fighting back against Hagan with some pretty effective ads. The McCain numbers speak for themselves.

Ah, and think, just yesterday, McCain was up by 20!!! LOL. Wait until you see today's national trackers. I've said from the beginning that this SATURDAY's numbers is really the measuring point for the start of the campaign.

Obama is up one in the Rasmussen Poll. Is it possible that America is smart enough to see through the McCain sleeze machine? It's not likely but I sure hope so...

Yeah, I guess that's a one day 16% improvement for Obama!

Seems more accurate. As I said yesterday, I live in rural NC and most of the people I know support Obama. They see Palin as a lightweight who was picked as a political stunt. They realize that Rove is behind the McCain campaign and they're tired of it. May not be enough to push Obama over the top, but at least people are realizing that McCain sold his soul to the devil by supporting Bush.

Ahhhh, now this is more like it. I expected McCain to come out with a four-to-eight point lead after the bounce, so these numbers make more sense.

@Napoleon Complex:
As per the PPP internals, rural/small town folks are more likely to vote for McCain based on Palin (2:1 for rural).
Seems contrary to your observation...?

Mark your calendar. 09/09/08...McCain's high point. It's OVER.

haha new rasmussen
46-46 w/o leaners
48-47 Obama w/leaners

6% for Cole and Munger is a bit too much to believe. This is resulting in underestimation for Dole/McCrory.

cmbat - It's not over. It's not over until November 4th. If you think McCain isn't going to have any more good news cycles and any more dangerous attacks, you're deluding yourself.

Here is the safe statement: Based on the Rasmussen poll, which is one of three tracking polls we will get today, it appears that the convention and the advantage it generated has faded. Due to the nature of tracking polls, we can probably predict that tomorrow's numbers will be even better for Obama and he will finish the week ahead.

The Survey usa yesterday had a Party ID base that throughout a 14% variation. There's a good analysis "about that NC poll" on the site So really a McCain lead of maybe 6% which tallies with this poll.

This is game on as GOTV wil decide this state!

R.S. I am talking mostly to a younger demographic that may not be getting picked up in the polling.

@combat
//high point//

not quite. wait till tracking picks up this piggy fall from grace.
----------------------------------
"YOU'RE LIKABLE ENOUGH, HILLARY"

this for me was the window into this man's real persona when he was under pressure. it sent me packing from his camp and firmly over to hillary.

i believed then that this was the true man, you always get the real deal when someone is under fire and starts to sweat.

well, yesterday was a really bad day polls wise for obama. he was panicking and it came out, the window opened again. it was entirely consistent with the above quote, that angry mocking put down thing.

that the riff "pit... with lipstick" had been the byte that may have caused his recent plunge in the polls is what clearly caught in his throat.

You'll note the play on the first two letters getting repeated, PI. he must have been looping that in his mind for days. and his amygdala, that almond sized anger hub in his brain got thebetter of him and played the riff out "pig with lipstick". it is most telling.

sometimes campaigns crash around bytes, visual or sound. Take the Dean Scream or the Dukakis tank photo op, or the windesurfing Kerry. While some in the media equate this with Mccain's 5 million dollar middle class stat, it is hardly the same. it is far more toxic and belies the bully that the Hillary quote really revealed.

the press pooh poohed it. the press is mostly male. this time we have learned that if it's alright to bring racism back to the table then it is now alright to do the same for the deepest seated bigotry of all. the one from the beginning of human time.

so hats off to palin. someone finally brought out the true obama. the polls will tell the rest no matter how loud cmbat and brutus and brambster et all cum axelrod shout.

this candidate trained in parsing and measuring his responses has shown in this that he is a lose cannon under pressure.

6% does not seem to me too much. Barr has particular appeal as a Libertarian in the south, and will likely drive up a Libertarian vote. With Barr at 4%, I can easily believe that a Libertarian governor could get to 6%.

Oh, lookee lookee, Obama GAINS 16 points overnight!!! What happened?!?!!? LOL.

boskop - "Lipstick on a pig" is a common enough line - he's used it before in other contexts, as has Cheney. It's a logical idiom to go to given Palin's own lipstick animal analogies. I won't psychoanalyze the history of the phrase, but I think it'll be tough to get a real controversy going on this one. (And it is notable, the "you're likable enough" comment was never one of the real flashpoints of the sexism debate either)

Please do not think that North Carolina will go the way of Virginia (if indeed Obama makes gains in VA.) The demographics in Virginia are changing rapidly, but not so in North Carolina. It is like saying that Idaho will go the way of Washington State. (Oops, McCain is gaining in Washington State. Let me rethink that. Just kidding. Washington will stay blue.)

Rasmussen Poll is the same w/o leaners as it has been for 3 of the last 4 days (46/46).

With leaners in the last 4 days-- two dead on ties, and two statistical ties (McCain +1 and Obama +1). Note: The margin of sampling error—for the full sample of 3,000 Likely Voters--is +/- 2 percentage points with a 95% level of confidence.

I do not see the "haha" in these numbers.

boskop - you are such a lying piece of garbage. Everyone knows mccain is the biggest misogynist on the planet.
-------------

Ironically, by picking a woman to be on his ticket, Mccain reinforces his misogynistic qualities. She is obviously not qualified and was only picked because of her gender. So Mccain's opinion of women voters (and especially women Hillary voters) is that "see, here is a woman, vote for me now, you brain dead fools". Never mind that Palin is socially right wing, including anti-abortion on all counts. Does McCain really think that women are that stupid?? Apparently so.

Taking this into account with his numerous "jokes" he has made about rape, lesbians, Chelsea Clinton, and wife-beating, and couple that with his numerous adulterous affairs and how he treats his current wife, and you get a particularly harsh insight into the soul of this man. He hates women. Period.

I'm still wondering why a "firm handshake" would require a cast like the one Cindy is sporting right now.

I should also add that the Obama campaign has dropped its 18-state battleground state strategy and it is now gleaned down to six or seven. North Carolina is not on the new list.

Either way you slice it or dice it old fish wrapped in a newspaper STINKS like old fish and You can put lots of lip stick on the pig but IT is still a pig.

Call it 5% at the height of the bounce this state is still in play.

at this moment, the man who adored the press trying to get an apology from hillary about her "mistake" voting for the ar, cant even now say he made a mistake about the SURGE.

in fact, he thinks mccain is swiftboating him when he made the lipstick comment.

this man cant say , 'oops'.

the polls will have it out, brutus, 'e tu brute!'

@brutus1

why not put it where the sun dont shine, you "lying creep."

---------------
your rhetoric is up your ass. bully you is bully obama.

if the readers like the way this post sounds, it is merely replicating the tone of every post this jerk uses.

Guys, this is getting way to ugly... Why are we insulting pigs?

Thanks for the same parroted pig cliche thoughtful lib.

All disillusioned dems decide which polls are good or bad based on what they want to see. 5 point or 50 points, McCain is still ahead, and he has momentum in the 4th quarter with the clock running and still holds the ball.

Your best is to keep the personal fouls coming, but your losing yardage.

Well, well, well. We could continue to call our fellow commentators 'lying pieces of garbage,' or we could admit that the race is very close.

McCain is ahead right now in Big Mo (thanks to Sarah Palin) and Obama is ahead in overall strategic position (More red states in play).

McCain is also ahead in N.C. but probably not by 20. Cheers. And thanks to all those who keep their cool.

KipTin:

Last time I checked Virginia was registering more dems than repubs, so the demographic has been changing, but in the other direction. That they are liking McCain is not good news for Obama. The NC demographic is also moving in the dems favor. Could it be that they have a lot of dem conservatives?

What the polls are showing is that ideology matters. It's not as much about Palin being a woman as it is about what she believes and practices. Watch the 30 lawyers sent to Alaska by Obama's campaign continue trying to portray her has a snake-handling pentacostal. The truth is, THEY are the snakes, and she'll handle them just fine!

richardkreed

You are right, I wouldn't call it Big Mo, although I can understand that you are as surprised as McCain apparently is. It's a bounce.

I am really unsure how the rest of the media (except FOX)and even some ABC journalists are going to take to Charlie Gibson's 2 exclusive days with Gov Palin. Dangerous territory you'd think for a journalist hand picked for a scoop!

NeverMetAnHonestLib
If it looks like a pig wearing lip stick IT is a pig wearing lip stick. McCain called it.

Glass jaw Obama is whining again. "Stop talking about my lipstick on a pig insult. Boo-hoo. I didn't mean it guys. I'm going on Letterman to explain."

Of course he meant it. And by reading the liberal comments on this site. You liberals mean it also. Why do loath rural America?

Why do you loath urban America and keep going to see movies even though you hate Hollywood conservatives?

marctx - He wasn't even talking about Palin, he was talking about mccain, you handicapped tard. Can't you idiots read?? What, now no one can say "lipstick" without it being about Palin. Get a brain, dimwits.

nevermetafact-

Really? Hmm, how about you mosey on over to intrade.com and place a few K on your prediction??

No?

Yeah, I thought not. Big talker, no cajones.

We'll see how many red states turn blue come 11/4, you pathetic creationist, jews-for-jesus, anti-woman's rights, war-mongering, climate change denying, retardlicans.

Here's a tidbit for ya : the above survey is LV, not RV. Eat it, morons.

Yeah boscrap-

The polls will have it out-

McCrap is already losing support in the repub tracking poll, rass.

Ooops, there goes the "bounce". Too bad, so sad.

Great quote by a true conservative, Andrew Sullivan:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/09/pigs-and-lipsti.html

So it's come to this. The full context of Barack Obama's quote is as follows:

“John McCain says he’s about change, too — except for economic policy, health care policy, tax policy, education policy, foreign policy and Karl Rove-style politics. That’s just calling the same thing something different.”

With a laugh, he added: “You can put lipstick on a pig; it’s still a pig. You can wrap an old fish in a piece of paper called change; it’s still going to stink after eight years.”

We are being asked to believe that he called Sarah Palin a pig. If the people making that accusation have half a brain they know it's not true. This is not a question of interpretation. It is a fact. So we now find out again that John McCain is prepared to tell an absolute lie - in public, verifiable, uncontestable.

He does not have the minimal public integrity to be president of the United States. Game this all you want; distort it all you want; bamboozle the morons at cable news all you want; win however many news cycles you want.

This claim is absurd on its face, like the Palin nomination to begin with. Absurd. And you can now tell who on the right has even a scintilla of intellectual honesty. That's all this episode is about: another tail-spin in the death throes of the Republican party.

Dammmmmn, CNN and Obama just beat down the lying McCain and Palin duo.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/10/happening-now-obama-says-enough-is-enough/

Barack Obama accused the McCain campaign of "lies" and "swift boat" politics Wednesday, after nearly a day of claims his 'lipstick on a pig' comment was a sexist attack leveled at GOP VP candidate Sarah Palin.

"Spare me the phony outrage. Spare me the phony knee talk about change," Obama said at the start of an education event in Virginia. "We have real problems in this country right now. The American people are looking to us for answers, not distractions, not diversions, not manipulations. They want real answers to the real problems we are facing.

"I don't care what they say about me. But I love this country too much to let them take over another election with lies and phony outrage and swift boat politics," he also said. "Enough is enough."

Obama's heated response came after the McCain campaign said the Illinois senator owes Palin an apology for invoking an old adage on the campaign trail Tuesday: "That's not change," Obama said, saying John McCain’s policy views were similar to President Bush’s. "That's just calling something the same thing something different. You know you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig."

McCain's campaign said Obama's remarks were offensive and a slap at Republican vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin — despite the fact that the Arizona senator himself used the phrase last year to describe a policy proposal of Hillary Clinton's.

___________________________________

Boom goes the dynomite! Eat that, you lying bunch of hypocrites.

The fact Obama's statement was then deemed sexist by the McCain camp shows how low they will go. Apparently Palin is infallible and any argument against her is sexist. Glad we got this out of the way.

@brutus

that's old news. you should get a life away from this site and try to get your feed live.

not to mention what a sucker you are for this guy and his mocking gotcha condescension.

so you must be some kind of wimp. not even michelle believes everything he says, BUT YOU DO!!!

To quote Cicero, "Brutus had the courage of a man and the brains of a child."

It seems to me that McCain should answer the charge. How can he be an agent of change when he supports George Bush's core policies?

“John McCain says he’s about change, too — except for economic policy, health care policy, tax policy, education policy, foreign policy and Karl Rove-style politics. That’s just calling the same thing something different.”

“You can put lipstick on a pig; it’s still a pig. You can wrap an old fish in a piece of paper called change; it’s still going to stink after eight years.”

I don't know why Obama just doesn't call McCain and Palin liars and move on.

Oh he did call them liars, why then are they talking about him calling Sarah Palin a pig, he didn't do that did he?

It seems to me that McCain should answer the charge. How can he be an agent of change when he supports George Bush's core policies?

To bad Cicero was a terrible politician. Allegory's are not your friend Lib.

Talking about Polls Rasmussen:

Tonight, at 5:00 p.m. Eastern, new polling will be released for New Mexico, North Dakota, and Alaska. Polling for Senate and Governors’ races will be released at 3:00 p.m. Eastern. Presidential polling has also been released for Colorado, Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Virginia.
TR in VA

My friend VOICE/Brutus does grate but only McCain can use foul language like that!

Prediction: Obama will be tied with McCain @ 46% in Today's Gallup Poll.

KipTin - the demographics are changing rapidly in NC as well as Virginia - where in Virginia the shift is led by an expanding gentrification of DC suburbs, in NC it's the strong development of the Research Triangle, the continuing gentrification of the coastal regions, and the steady growth of Charlotte.

Both developments favor the Democrats long-term, but in Virginia the trend is slightly more pronounced, making it about two points easier to pick off than North Carolina.

any State polls due out today?

Thanks

Are spelling and definitions your friends, Andy?

@TR in VA: With a post like that, I fail to see the difference between you and Brutus_1

Tybo
Talking about Polls Rasmussen:

Tonight, at 5:00 p.m. Eastern, new polling will be released for New Mexico, North Dakota, and Alaska. Polling for Senate and Governors’ races will be released at 3:00 p.m. Eastern. Presidential polling has also been released for Colorado, Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Virginia

You can paint a bookshop pretty colors, but in the end it's still a lying asshole.

Pion:
Agreed.

@thoughtful

I thought it was pretty clear he was taking a jab at Palin. Even half way thru saying it, he kinda had that look of "oh crap, what am I saying". Anyway, its a non issue, just another hidden smear against McCain / Palin in my opinion.
Remember in 1992 when towards the end of the campaign Bush and Quayle started losing it? Saying things like "you can't elect these bozo's". You're watching the early signs of Obama melting down. I think their intenrals are shwoing them very bad things.
I noticed when you listed the Bush policies you say McCain supports, I notice you left out conveniently energy policy....is that because Obama was with Bush on energy and McCain was not? Or did you just skip it by mistake?
How about tax policy? Does the left really think that in an economic slowdown raising taxes will help? To me that is insane, but maybe I am wrong, maybe raising taxes in the midst of a slowdown will spur investment and job creation? I personally think more tax cuts are in order, across the board....accompanied by a massive spending slash across the board.
Bush's foreign policy? How many times have we been attacked since 9/11? To my knowledge, zero, maybe I am wrong....but I beleive we have thwarted several attempts.
Education policy? You mean the bi-partisan "no child left behind" co sponsored by the liberals biggest icon, Teddy Kennedy? That education policy?
How many earmarks has McCain voted for in all his time in the Senate? I beleive the # is zero...but in just 4 years, Obama has nearly a billion dollars of wasteful spending in earmarks he voted for.
I'm more than happy to talk about issues, the only problem is, Obama is not. He is doing what liberals do, playing the victim. Claiming everyone is picking on him, while avoding the issues. McCain offered him a discussion about issues i nthe town hall challenge, Obama chickened out. He is playing the victim card, its a predictable move by the left. As his desperation grows he will resort to the race card. Bill Clinton himself said the Obama camp was using the race card....or is Bill part of that vast right wing conspiracy?
Like it or not, character matters in a president. On that issue Obama isn't anywhere near McCain, McCain is way out in front of him.
Obama's been in the senate for 4 years and hasn't proposed one peice of legislation designed to "change" anything....he's doing business as usual, voting for earmarks, etc. He couldn't even vote yes or no on legislation in the state senate, he votes present. That's no leader, that is a politican calculating every move he makes.
Biden and Hillary both are on record saying Obama simply is not ready to be president....he clearly has no idea what he is doing on foreign policy, ants to invade Pakistan, but thinkgs Iran is a small country that is no real threat.
Obama is finished, the debates will be the nail in his coffin.

NeverMetAnHonestCon

Obama called McCain out on how can he be an agent of change if he supports Bush's Core Policies. Are you able to explain it as McCain certainly can not.

Yes, Obama implied that Palin was indeed a "pig" with lipstick. Palin's joke about hockey moms "primed" the term "lipstick" only last week, and now "lipstick" is associated with her. This connectivist phenomenon has been proven time and time again in cognitive research. The marketing industry uses this same cognitive concept of "priming" in advertising ALL the time. Obama would have to be a full-blown idiot to not understand that his "words" did not hold any such message.

Democratic Representative Russ Carnahan also made a similar "lipstick" directed at McCain's choice of Palin when he introduced Biden yesterday. Two separate "lipstick" references made by the Obama campaign yesterday. Coordinated? Yes!

Typical tactics by Obama campaign manager David Axlerod. Not surprisingly, the Obamanation network already had their talking points about McCain using the phrase in discussing Hillary's universal health care plan. (But of course, Hillary never compared herself to anything wearing "lipstick.")

Now today Obama et al is blaming the McCain campaign for putting forward a "distraction" and "the old politics" and "It is an excuse for the McCain campaign to not talk about real issues."

I truely believe the convoluted "trap" set for McCain backfired. McCain and Palin are staying on message, while Obama himself is wasting time and energy directly addressing the issue. That may get his base fired up, but it does nothing to get voters to move toward his side... unless he is just targeting sexist and misogynistic voters.

McCain up 20 in NC yesterday; McCain up 4 in NC today. The truth is probably somewhere in-between. This poll is probably closer to the truth due to the fact that it was taken at the end of McCain's bounce rather than in the middle of McCain's bounce. Also, yesterday's SUSA poll had a 41% Republican sample (SUSA does not weight for party ID). This figure is slightly higher than the actual Republican turnout in 2000 and 2004.

The two polls have shown Obama getting 85-86% of the African-American vote in NC. If there is record-high turnout among African-Americans, and if more than 9 out of 10 of them break for Obama, then Obama may win a very narrow victory in NC.

An earlier comment made the inaccurate claim that Obama has conceded NC. In fact, he has conceded GA, and is moving staff from that state into NC.

@KipTin:
I should also add that the Obama campaign has dropped its 18-state battleground state strategy and it is now gleaned down to six or seven. North Carolina is not on the new list.

---

I think Obama bagged Georgia for now and has diverted effort from Georgia to NC...if NC is within 4-6 points after the RNC convention bounce, they will surely keep it in play for now.

Of course, a lot depends on their internal polls. If you ran their campaign, would you put any trust in public polling that had Obama down 20 yesterday and down 4 today?

I find this unbelievable in view of all the other polls states and national (exc Internet/Zogby)

Gallup Tracking 09/06 - 09/08 2737 RV 49 44 McCain +5
Has Gallup adjusted its model and weighting?

I suspect we have a GALLUP outlier, or Gallup is right and every body else is wrong!

Thoughtful:

If you will list the core Bush policies that McCain supports, we can talk about whether or not these are failed policies.

faithhopelove:

See "about that North Carolina poll..." a great post on the site that explains SUSA's screw up.

It should be about 6% if one adjusts the voter ID to wear it should be.

thanks Thoughtful for the info!

@ stillow

once again, your stupidity and bias astound me. Ok, let's go through a select few of the moronic things you just wrote.

1)"I thought it was pretty clear he was taking a jab at Palin. Even half way thru saying it, he kinda had that look of "oh crap, what am I saying". Anyway, its a non issue, just another hidden smear against McCain / Palin in my opinion."

The vast majority of neutral analysists (not you or me since we're both biased) have said that he was talking about McCain from what they perceived. He had yet to mention Palin even once in that discussion and he had referenced McCain right before (or right after).

2)"I noticed when you listed the Bush policies you say McCain supports, I notice you left out conveniently energy policy....is that because Obama was with Bush on energy and McCain was not?"

To say that Obama is with Bush on energy policy is ridiculous. George Bush, the same guy with Haliburton in his and Cheney's pocket does not care one bit about alternative fuels nor does he care about creating new jobs through renewable energy.

3) "How about tax policy? Does the left really think that in an economic slowdown raising taxes will help? To me that is insane, but maybe I am wrong..."

You probably are. As I recall, we have a republican in office who is ALL FOR tax cuts and that has just worked wonderfully.

4)"He is doing what liberals do, playing the victim. Claiming everyone is picking on him, while avoding the issues."

Are you talking about Obama? This single quote here is the BIGGEST EXAMPLE OF HOW YOU ARE BLIND. Look me in the eye and tell me that Sarah Palin is not doing EXACTLY what you wrote.

5)"Like it or not, character matters in a president. On that issue Obama isn't anywhere near McCain, McCain is way out in front of him."

Right, Obama was the one that left his crippled wife for a rich, more attractive lady who he married in a month. REAL character indeed. Obama also calls his wife a c*** on a regular basis.

6) "Biden and Hillary both are on record saying Obama simply is not ready to be president"

Context, u moron. Don't pick and choose what candidates say when they're running AGAINST each other. Did Mitt Romney ever criticize McSame when they were running against each other? Just, shut up.

7) "Obama is finished, the debates will be the nail in his coffin. "

I love this one. The role of the underdog has done VERY well this election cycle. Obama has NO chance, he's a terrible debater and McCain is going to light him up.

New McCain ad about Obama air dropping 30 lawyers in AK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK4oWay1VbE

Obama polls at 80% in France:

http://timescorrespondents.typepad.com/charles_bremner/2008/09/barack-obama-th.html

oui nous pouvons

@thoughtful

Nate has a very lucid piece taking up the question of whether Gallup oversamples Republicans:

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/09/lets-get-few-things-straight-party-id.html

The response bias issue is really interesting: it might be that Republicans had been hiding from pollsters prior to being fired up by the convention and the Palin pick. That said, a ten-point swing in the partisan composition of the country is unlikely to occur over the course of a week. We'll see.

From what I read yesterday the following are now Obama target-states:

All Kerry-won states plus Colorado, Nevada, Virginia, Florida, Indiana, Nebraska.

I could not find North Carolina in the new list. And that last NC poll had nothing to do with their decision (unless they got an advanced copy.) The Obama campaign may have their own internal polls.

@kerrchdavis

LOL...sorry I don't mean to laugh at you. Your replies were all personal attacks, calling me stupid, etc.....saying lame comments like do you really think obama is with bush on energy policy???? Well ya, if he votes for the Bush plan what am I supposed to think? He meant to vote present instead?

Typical liberal response, attack, attack, destory character, call names, call stupid....I for one love it....its just part of the Obama melt down.

"The vast majority of neutral analysists (not you or me since we're both biased..."

so you think the audiences which snickered , didn't get it?

it was like flipping off HRC..

a special bonus adolescent Obama showing his true self

everyone "gets" it.
even his audience.

Stillow my friend;

Read the transcript:

Obama called out McCain.

McCain can not be a change agent if he supports Bush's core policies, can he?

Personally I just think Obama should call McCain and Palin liars, it's as simple as that.

thoughtful.. watch the video tape.
snickers and obama's smirk

he knew what he was doing.

Stillow:

Kerrchdavis is at the same intellectual level as Brutus. Please don't waste your time responding.

@ stillow

lol, hey, what can I say? I'm an expressive guy. I think you're a complete nut, a troll and a moron and I'll call you as such. You're also a liar.

I guess you can call me the straight talk express.

@thoughtful

We'll just disagree on it, it was obvious it was a jab at Palin....which I don't have an issue with, its part of politics, personal attacks happen. The bad part is he didn't apologize, instead he is as usual, playing th poor victim...its a classic left wing move, personally attack someone, when the other side gets angry, then quickly accuse them of diverting from issues......its in liberalism 101.....divert, distract, attack, then claim victim status.

@NeverMetAnHonestLib:

Good point, sometimes I cannot resist though, you lay out the "issues" that they claim to want to discuss...and when they get called out, they start calling you stupid, moronic, etc...then claim the moral highground....but your probably right, better to ignore and save myself what little hair I have left.

@never

I don't even need to respond to you Never. Just look at your alias. The name you choose to represent yourself has no credibility and as a result, people don't take you seriously before they even read what you have to write.

Obama indeed did vote for the Bush/Cheney energy policy, whereas Hillary and McCain did not.

Obama supported both Big Oil and Big Agri (aka "alternative" fuel known as corn ethanol). He has a recorded vote and saying the opposite does not make it go away.

Energy = Economy + Security is a winning strategy for McCain/Palin.

Thoughtful:

Before we can address the "change agent" thing I still challenge you to list the core Bush policies McCain supports so we can talk about whether or not they are failed policies.

Otherwise "change" is a moot point.

Spelling jabs and intellectual elitism to stay above the fray. It's like the conservative Anti-Obama is among us. The apocalypse is near...

Tybo

What Obama said is a matter of record, read the transcript. McCain should answer the charge.He can't so let's divert attention.

Personally having watched her speeches (same speech) a few times, I think hold on this person is amazingly disrespectful not only to Obama but people in genuine public service and this person is a liar.

Let her defend herself, let her call a press conference, is she not allowed to be scrutinzed? This is absurd she is standing for VPOTUS!

Never Met An Honest Con

Gallup is obviously over polling Repubs

NeverMetAnHonestCon and other friends:

Here is the transcript:

“John McCain says he’s about change, too — except for economic policy, health care policy, tax policy, education policy, foreign policy and Karl Rove-style politics. That’s just calling the same thing something different.”

“You can put lipstick on a pig; it’s still a pig. You can wrap an old fish in a piece of paper called change; it’s still going to stink after eight years.”

Well Gallup, right or wrong remains +5 for mccain today.

read the transcipt?

Watch the video.. snickers and a smirk.

how classy.

Rasmussen's forthcoming NM poll should be interesting. Given that McCain (1) is still enjoying a bounce, (2) just visited NM with Palin, and (3) is from next-door AZ, right-leaning Rasmussen should find him ahead. Rasmussen under-estimated Kerry's support in NM in 2004 by about 4%. See:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/bush_vs_kerry_sbys.html

New polls of NM, NV, CO, and FL are discussed here:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-09-09-Hispanicvote_N.htm

While these polls focus on the Hispanic vote, there are also comments about the non-Hispanic vote. The NM poll indicates Obama is running ahead of Kerry's pace with Hispanics, but behind Kerry's pace with non-Hispanics. In NV, Obama is running ahead of Kerry's pace with Hispanics, and has numbers similar to those of Kerry among non-Hispanics.

In CO, Obama has a 30-point lead among Hispanics, and a 4-point lead among non-Hispanics--meaning this poll finds Obama up by more than 4 in CO.

In FL, the poll found Obama and McCain tied with both Hispanics and non-Hispanics.

thoughtful.. why did you drop the snickers and the smirk?

that would be the full transcipt,,, kind of an inside joke, ya know, like the high school team making a sly joke about drinking and sex that the adults aren't suppose to get...

but the adults always do understand it.

McCain/Bush failed policies probably would include:

Human Rights Credibility (Waterboarding, treatment of POWs, Abu-Ghraib)
Economics (1980's trickle down tax rebates)
Afghanistan War
Veteren's Benefits
International Foreign Policy credibility
Education Policy (No Child Left Behind)

There are more I'm sure but these are the ones that come to mind.

Hehehe, maybe McCain should have voted Present, then he couldn't get aniled on anything like Obama right?

Conservatives failure to recognize the importance of an ABSTAIN vote probably originates from that, "Your either for us or against us" mentality. The world is just so much easier to comprehend in dualities.

Since thoughtful can't do it, perhaps some of you other smart libs can name some core Bush policies that McCain supports so we can discuss whether or not they're failed policies.

Or just name the failed policies themselves and tell us how McCain supports them.

Or are you afraid that the 4 more years of the same mantra doesn't really stand?

Tybo

This is like double Chuzpah. They try to steal Obama's clothing which he has been wearing for 19 months.

The sheer audacity - its got to make you laugh and its tragic that an intelligent person like yourself seem to think its not the height of ironies! hence laughter, snigger as I am doing, as Obama doing nothing to do with Palin just the "Change" platform!

As for McCain, he has sold himself, it appears to the devil,

As for Sarah Palin, we are going to have another week of image building by the Repub party coutesy of MSM and ABC and FOX in particular.

Going Fishin back later

Thoughtful.

Obama has continuly acted like a victim while he's attacked in a childishly sly way. "likable enough", the brusing off of his shoulders like a misogynist rapper, the pig statements.

He's not mature enough to be president.

I've been saying this for a while now, but in response to Napolean's comment, the younger demographic is clearly not being picked up. I live in very rural, very conservative Southwest Missouri and Obama is by far who everyone is for. I'm talking 5 to 1 plus for Obama. Missouri is very much in play, despite what media sources are saying. Indiana, where most of my friends and family is the same way.

Just glance at the "Top 10 must reads" on this site and see how desperate the Obama press is getting. Meanwhile McCain's popularity grows. I guess it goes to show that manure tossed in the right place makes good things grow better. Keep it coming libs.

Tell me how Obama's statement was misogynist. Where is the connection to a gender based comment and a pig?

Is it because of Palin's comment that all pigs are non-lipstick wearing hockeymoms?

Stop crying wolf with the gender card.

Stillow:

Have you noticed how deafening the silence when we ask libs to name failed Bush policies that McCain supports? I wonder why that is?

Failed Bush Policy #1

Veteran's Benefits:

Bush and McCain both were against the GI Bill. I would say that this would show a failure of Bush to update the tuition costs of what the current GI Bill provide (barely anything) and reflective of a failed Education Policy. McCain voted against it and Bush wanted to veto it before it became veto proof.

@NeverMetAnHonestLib

Libs don't answer questions about policy, they respond with personal attacks, name calling and distractions. Then they spread there populist rhetoric about lowing education costs, providing healthcare for all, catching Osama, etc.....and they are going to do it all without raising taxes on everyone.....They are much mor eintrested in playing the victim than discussing real solutions. Remember the Pastor Warren forum? When mccain killed Obama, what did they do right away...they say mccain mus thave cheated....there side has no class...they are out there calling palin a pig, accusing mccain of being a war monger, ya, a former pow who gave up 6 years of his life to regular torture just loves making wars and sending people off to die.....
Populist nonsense, dems want to save the world wheather you need it or not...and the gop just wants old people to die, kids to starve and for all of us to go without healthcare.....its the same old crap we've heard for 40 years....the message never changes, just the messenger.

12 minutes too late Stillow. A+ for effort.

Andrew:

I wouldn't call that a policy.

I do, however, think you will find that Bush and McCain were supportive of a new GI Bill. Bush threatened veto if it contained war timelines. That has never been acceptable to Bush or McCain. They were also concerned about military retention rates of an all-volunteer military if the incentives were too high. That, of course, would give the libs a chance to resurrect the old "Bush wants to bring back the draft" fears.

Now let's talk about real policies.

Stillow:

Well said. Maybe the messenger doesn't change either--unless clones really ARE different messengers.

Libs have been playing this game for years... sponsor a bill called, "Save American Jobs" and then attach all sorts of unacceptable garbage to it, like billions of dollars to protect sea turtles in Key West.

When the President threatens to veto it, they run to the MSM cameras and microphones and say the President threatens to raise unemployment.

When election time rolls around, they make political ads that ad to the deception. The MSM are willing accomplises. It's been done on both sides, but the difference is the MSM always expose the repubs.

@Stillow

I see you expect an apology from Obama.

I agree. He needs apologize to pigs :)

What you define a policy or a "real" one for that matter unfortunately is not my prerogative. A piece of legislation outlining the medical/educational benefits of veterans is a policy and definitely a policy stance.

The amendment for troop withdrawal in the bill was amended out early in the process yet McCain and Bush still were against this because they thought it wouldn't allow the military to retain troops. The fact that we already had a GI bill of failing stature was the reason this bill was implemented. The government and military sells this piece of legislation to get people to enlist in the military and Bush/McCain don't want to write the checks after these veterans foot the bill. You can't sell these kids out of high school a lemon of an education to incentize them to join the military then not pay up.

In sum, failed policy. Continue to skirt away from the debate when you clearly asked for a policy though. I must say use of semantics was a decent red herring though.

Andrew:

It's hard to make an argument that Bush or McCain don't value GI's. Their actions just don't reflect that. We all need to look a little deeper as to why people don't support a particular piece of legislation. Bush "policy" is very pro-military and his actions confirm it.

Your burden of proof falls on finding policies that would support this claim. What "policies" did he pass to gain this reputation other than walking and talking like a hawk?

If Bush and McCain are not supportive of GI's why did most of them vote for Bush in 2004 and 2008? I think we have a pretty good idea that they'll go for McCain this time around.

If Bush and McCain are not supportive of GI's why did most of them vote for Bush in 2000 and 2004? I think we have a pretty good idea that they'll go for McCain this time around.

This has nothing supportive about policies. I don't care what reputation Bush might portray. I'm just trying to discuss failed Bush/McCain policies like you called liberals on. It's the debate you wanted after all.