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POLL: Daily Tracking (8/28-30)


Gallup Daily
8/28-30/08; 2,730 RV, 2%
Mode: Live Telephone Interviews

National
Obama 48, McCain 42


Rasmussen
8/28-30/08; 3,000 LV, 2%
Mode: IVR

National
Obama 49, McCain 46

 

Comments
Tybo:

Reflecting a small convention bounce for Obama.

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Brutus1:

Yeah, once mccain and palin go around the country, that bounce will be even larger than the convention bounce of 9 points....for Obama. Yikes, have you seen them together?? It looks like mccain wanted a trophy VP to go along with his trophy wife. Wow....just wow. He should have picked Laura Bush...she is more qualified than that Miss Alaska.

It looks like mccain has finally and completely lost his mind.


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Sergei Groinka:

Brutus, already Obama's lead is plummeting down... From +8 to +6 in 24 hours (Gallup). I bet within 2-3 days it'll be -2 or -3. Anyway I think she is more qualified than Obama. You are jealous that we Idahoans got a VP.

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zotz:

According to what I have read here and elsewhere the avg. bounce for a convention is around 5 points. The real question is where will the polls be a week from now.

Once the shock of the Palin choice has worn off and people begin to ask what her positions are on the issues I predict that Obama will still have the lead. How big a lead I can't predict now.

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player:

Sarah Palin is every red bloodied American boy's dream. She has energized the conservative base like no one in recent memory. She is mainstream America. One would expect a 10 McCain lead by the time the GOP convention is over with. He may never look back from then on.

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Brutus1:

I’ve voted a straight Republican ticket every year of my life since 1975, when I first came of voting age, but I was stunned and horrified by McCain’s choice of Palin. I simply cannot even consider voting for McCain after this choice, which speaks loudly of his own selfishness and fundamental frivolousness.

So I was shocked when I turned to the conservative blogs looking for others who shared my dismay and found a celebration going on. They really honestly believe that Palin’s "inexperience" and Obama’s "inexperience" are equivalent. I have had no luck at all in the past 24 hours trying to explain that Obama is quite obviously an impressive man (with whom I disagree on almost every major issue) with extraordinary qualities of organization, discipline and leadership. I see nothing in Palin’s record to suggest that she has any such qualities.

He is a man who has spent his adult life thinking serious thoughts about serious issues and having serious conversations about them with other serious, well-informed people; while Palin quite as clearly has done none of those things. He was the president of the Harvard Law Review; she was the point guard on her high school basketball team. She went to the University of Idaho for her undergraduate (and only) degree in journalism (!), while he excelled at Columbia and then Harvard. He taught Constitutional Law at the prestigious University of Chicago Law School, and she was Miss Alaska. He has passed all sorts of legislation in the Illinois legislature and the Senate the last 10 years. She occupied herself as governor for the past 1.5 years by trying to get her ex-brother-in-law fired from a state trooper position and is currently under investigation because of it. While Obama has inspired and mobilized millions of people here and around the world, she is the governor of a state with less than 700,000 people (about the same number as Fort Worth, Texas) who has no foreign policy experience and is on a ticket with a man who expiration date is coming up fast.

Obama has surrounded himself in his campaign with world-class people (with whom, again, I disagree on almost every issue); and though I am doubtless an elitist and snob for saying so, I doubt that she has even met a half-dozen world-class people in her lifetime.

While Obama might do a hundred things as President that I believe are bad for the country, I am confident that he would surround himself with experienced, informed, competent advisors and that he would make no world-destroying blunders. I cannot say the same about Palin and, in view of what this choice reveals about McCain’s character and judgment, I cannot say the same of him either.


The Palin pick says much more about McCain than it does about Palin (all it says about her is that she didn't have the good sense to turn it down). What it says about McCain is that he is more interested in politics than policy, more interested in campaigning than governing, tactical when he should be strategic, and reckless when he should be considered.

He is as big a gamble as president as Palin is as vice-president. This decision was about gut, about politics, about cynicism, and about vanity. It's Bushism metastasized.


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sjt22:

@ Player

A 10 point McCain lead in one week? I think Palin has made your red American blood drain from your brain and into... other areas.

Convention bounces have short term effects. They usually dissipate within one month of the end of the Conventions. It may be even sooner in this case given the back to back timing of the DNC and RNC. I think the effects will clear within a few weeks and we'll be back to where we started last week, with a statistical dead heat in the national polls.

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zotz:

Brutus1-
A small but, I predict, growing number of Republican voices will destroy this illusion that Palin is qualified to be VP. None other than Charles Krauthammer and former Bush speechwriter David Frum have already spoken out against Palin. It reminds me of 'The Emperor Has No Clothes' story where everyone knows the truth but are afraid to say it.

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Uri:

I think Gustav is going to mess the RNC and then remind people of GW Bush and Katrina. That is not good for McCain. The only positive thing is that there will not be a W speech and hence no hug with McCain

And Brutus, I agree she's inexperienced, so is Obama, and I agree that Obama is more impressive and *probably* more intelligent or at least intellectual. However, one of the concerns about Obama was that people might not feel that he "connects to them" on an economic and cultural level. Which admittedly he doesn't. Palin does because she does look like the other mother from your kid soccer's practice and unlike biden she's not really removed from low-middle class America. If the election is about the economy, this may make a difference.

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Uri:

By the way, my theory is that McCain knows he's going to lose anyway, and McCain is essentially saying: "Here is what I think about an empty shell like Obama".

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Brutus1:

sergei- you might want to look up what "noise" means in relation to polls. please educate yourself about statistics before posting here lest you be considered ignorant by others.

--------------------------

I doubt that sjt22.


The comedians are going to have a field day with this one. I would be very surprised if Obama had less than a 5 point lead going into the debates. Unbelievably, we have a creationist on a major party ticket once again. So, it will energize the flat-earth crowd a bit - but these people were going to vote for mccain anyway.

I really thought we would have seen the end of creationist types in politics after bush, but never underestimate the stupidity of the American people nor the pure craziness of John Mccain.

And people wonder why we are mocked around the globe.......

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HJM-UGA:

Brutus1 -
I'm relieved to hear someone say this -- I feel like I've been living in some kind of parallel universe for the last 2 days. I think the Palin pick is stunningly awful on so many levels. I can't believe the MSM and many conservatives are treating this pick as a smart move. Yes, she's an attractive woman who could be my friend or neighbor but I don't want my neighbor to be one 72-year-old heartbeat away from running our country and our military. And I've heard several conservative pundits say she has the same amount of experience as Obama and nobody is contradicting them. Since when is 20 months as governor of Alaska the same as years in the Illinois state senate and the U.S. Senate? This pick is so deeply cynical toward women that it's breathtaking. "She looks like she'd be fun to have coffee with, I think I'll vote for her to potentially be the most powerful person in the free world." I keep waiting for someone to identify the elephant in the room and no one's doing it, at least not in the MSM.

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KipTin:

If Gustav hits the Gulf States, the GOP convention will be "modified" for that event with fewer days and/or a possible call for service to victims as well as Red Cross fundraising.

The sexist comments from Obamanation are disgusting. Examples--
"trophy VP"
"I think Palin has made your red American blood drain from your brain and into... other areas."

Even others do not realize what they are saying. (Hint replace with idea of black man and then you have the Obamanation basis to cry racism.)--
"I agree that Obama is more impressive and *probably* more intelligent or at least intellectual."

Finally, that same ol' elitist attitude--
"but never underestimate the stupidity of the American people..."

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thoughtful:

Picking Palin, who is NOT giving any interviews at all, was not putting "country first".

But if you want a fundamental social conservative in the WH, Sarah Palin fits the bill.

She is not qualified, has never spent any time examining all the important issues facing the country.

A chimpanze could run the economy in Alaska. The oil company's have had their tax raised by a few % and in the meantime are getting over 400% more for their oil as 2 years ago.

A state like Alaska should be rich with only 600,000 people living there and all that natural wealth. Somebody has been getting ripped off year after year by Republican Administations including hers.

McCain should frighten every thinking American citizen. The country elected GWB not once but twice. We are witnessing the collapse of a great power.

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KipTin:

NPR interviewed Palin and discovered that Palin is extraordinarily knowledgeable and articulate regarding energy issues. A BIG plus for McCain. Neither Biden nor Obama are even close on this one.

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KipTin:

Great... call Palin a "chimpanzee." Imagine the howling of racism if such was used to describe Obama.

FYI... Alaska is a very important "resource" state for the U.S. And I would say that Alaska Governor trumps "community organizer" any day.

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Brutus1:

HJM-UGA -


Ironically, by picking a woman to be on his ticket, Mccain reinforces his misogynistic qualities. She is obviously not qualified and was only picked because of her gender. So Mccain's opinion of women voters (and especially women Hillary voters) is that "see, here is a woman, vote for me now, you brain dead fools". Never mind that Palin is socially right wing, including anti-abortion on all counts. Does McCain really think that women are that stupid?? Apparently so.

Taking this into account with his numerous "jokes" he has made about rape, lesbians, Chelsea Clinton, and wife-beating, and couple that with his numerous adulterous affairs and how he treats his current wife, and you get a particularly harsh insight into the soul of this man. He hates women. Period.

I'm still wondering why a "firm handshake" would require a cast like the one Cindy is sporting right now.

This guy is scary - and just plain unstable.


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KipTin:

Governor Palin--
Top Priorities:
•resource development
•education and workforce development
•public health and safety
•transportation and infrastructure development.

Accomplishments:
•Invested $5 billion in state savings
•Overhauled education funding
•Implemented the Senior Benefits Program that provides support for low-income older Alaskans. •Created Alaska’s Petroleum Systems Integrity Office to provide oversight and maintenance of oil and gas equipment, facilities and infrastructure
•Created Climate Change Subcabinet to prepare a climate change strategy for Alaska.
•Passed overhaul of the state’s ethics laws
•Passed legislation for competitive process to construct a gas pipeline (a slam at Big Oil).

Energy focus--
•Chair of the Interstate Oil and Gas Compact Commission, a multi-state government agency that promotes the conservation and efficient recovery of domestic oil and natural gas resources while protecting health, safety and the environment.
•Chair of the National Governors Association (NGA) Natural Resources Committee

So how "chimpanzee-like" is that?

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thoughtful:

Undecided/Kiptin

A 5th grader could run Alaska better than the clowns that have been running the State.

Palin is the Vice presidential candidate, she is knowlegeable on energy matters at the pumping end. She is only an issue as a President McCain is 72+. She is only an issue as he paid less attention to her appointment that you'd put towards interviewing a house keeper or any one that you would put in trust.

I'd like to know because the people in Alaska actually own all the mineral rights, why is it that they are paying any tax at all - nobody pays tax in Kuwait, Dubai etc? I won't go into all the impoverishment there in terms of social issues. Size of budget? the $ 400 million ear marked for bridges "going no where" but the money ended up in the States Budget.

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zotz:

KipTin-
Are Charles Krauthammer and David Frum now a part of "Obamanation"?

Let's see you squirm out of that one!

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reverendmatt:

A few rePUMAcans have dramatically declared Palin to be the perfect choice but most of the disaffected Hillary supporters have already ready seen through Palin's choice as an insulting and cynical attempt to pander to them.

However Palin in the longer term will serve a greater purpose she can speak to the conservative base,( she's their dream candidate, pro-life, pro-guns, pro-creationist and pro-drilling) thus allowing McCain to speak to the independents in the battle ground states as a less polarizing figure. A lot of people have noted the occasions lately where the McCain campaign had to disavow some of McCain's own statements, thats because he has had to try to take both conservative and moderate positions at the same time to try to appeal to both groups. Over the next month or so keep track of what each of them are saying, I would be very surprised if you don't find two versions of the republican platform being sold simultaneously.

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Brutus1:

Kip Tin-

Are you Karl Rove - or one of his relatives?

After the right-wing nuts tried to portray Obama as inexperienced for the past year, McCain picks a governor of 1.5 years of a state with less people than Fort Worth. This is hypocrisy exemplified. Palin will cause McCain to lose. He should have picked Romney or Huckabee. It is a disgrace to the once respectable Republican party to pick such an obvious dimwit that can't even pronounce "Iraq", "Iran", or "nuclear" properly. It's like they found a female George Bush.

By the way, if you are trying to make an analogy, you might want to get the full resumes of the candidates down. Obama's community organizer credentials would be comparable to Palin's Miss Alaska experience. Palin's part-time mayoral/council position of a town of 6,000 would be compared to Obama's Illinois legislative experience. And Palin's 1.5 years of governorship of 700,000 people would be compared to Obama's 3.5 years of Senatorial experience. Not really comparable at all, really. Of course, what Obama DID in those capacities destroys Palin in every way, shape and form. Never mind the educational chasm between the two.

What is truly scary is that Palin has absolutely NO foreign policy experience whatsoever - despite the claims by random Fox crazies (and cindy mccain) that "Alaska is close to Russia, so that is foreign policy experience". Poor Fox, do they even know how dumb they sound?

As far as your other posts-

"Your arguments are pure rubbish and worthy of no elaborate response as you seem to have no grasp of logic or reason."

That about sums it up.

Please seek help.

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thoughtful:

Kiptin/Undecided

I can see you have had your briefing and I look forward to seeing Gov. Palin after she has had her media training and briefing. You forgot she is C in C of Alaska's national guard who are frontline against the Russians!

If you think that 16 months on the above is training or experience to be President of the United States good luck to you.

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Stillow:

The fact that Palin has the left in such a frenzy means that she was exactly the right pick. Brings new face to the GOP, fresh ideas..competent record. A conservative woman. You people on the left are trying every angle to discredit her...it will not work. She's an average Jane living in this country. You guys are nervous, the left thought they had the only women in politics, the only minorities, etc. Palin is more than capable, she is exciting, she is fresh and she scares the hell out of the left....which is why they are doing everythign they can to slam her. She is an exciting pick. Biden is about as exciting as a insurance seminar. Palin is a great choice, the more the left tries to destory her, the mroe it will make her connect with the average voter.
The left was drooling for someone like Romney, Palin shakes the whole race up, puts the left into a corner as you can see from some of their irrational arguments against her. She's feisty and able, I think she'll handle Biden with no issue at the debate.
Trashing a good woman for the sake of poltical gain is going to backfire on the left....let them do their best to protray her as what they want...facts are facts....and most voters will see thru them.
Couldn't have asked for a more exciting choice. The base is energized now....sorry lefties, try as you will, your attempts to slam Palin will backfire and voters will like her.

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Brutus1:

All-

This trooper-gate thing is about to explode.

Here is a link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UojMnCgqVA&eurl=http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/


I predict that Palin is replaced by Romney in the next week or two. This is NOT going away.


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zotz:

On the subject of Karl Rove-
This is Rove giving his opinion of Obama's VP choice and Tim Kaine on Face The Nation:

"I think he's going to make an intensely political choice, not a governing choice," Rove said. "He's going to view this through the prism of a candidate, not through the prism of president; that is to say, he's going to pick somebody that he thinks will on the margin help him in a state like Indiana or Missouri or Virginia. He's not going to be thinking big and broad about the responsibilities of president."

Rove singled out Virginia governor Tim Kaine, also a Face The Nation guest, as an example of such a pick.

"With all due respect again to Governor Kaine, he's been a governor for three years, he's been able but undistinguished," Rove said. "I don't think people could really name a big, important thing that he's done. He was mayor of the 105th largest city in America."

TALK ABOUT IRONY!!!

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reverendmatt:

Stillow- you are right Palin is an exciting pick, a total crap shoot. As you said the choice of Biden is about exciting as an insurance seminar, a good vp pick is like an insurance policy and its pretty clear which VP candidate most people would want to depend on in a tough situation

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thoughtful:

@Stillow

You are absolutely right. I am very nervous. GWB was elected not once but twice.

Palin is the only candidate McCain copuld have picked that would disrupt the Obama momentum and who knows the US voter may be influenced by his inspired choice and brilliant political judgement as far as the general election is concerned.

We shall see.

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Brutus1:

stillow-

That has to be THE funniest post I have ever read on ANY board! That was satire, right?

Well, if it wasn't satire, then I feel sorry for you.

The dems LOVE the pick. They just can't believe mccain was THAT dumb to pick her.

I really would respect republicans more if they spoke the truth and said how disappointed they were in the pick of Miss Alaska (almost) and not keep pretending they like the pick because it "energizes" their base of creationists and flat-eathers. Is that what the republican party has been reduced to - counting on the homo erectus vote and being proud of it? How sad indeed.

By the way, I expect Obama/Biden o be up by 5 points before the debate in which Biden systematically destroys almost-Miss Alaska. Why do you think she isn't giving any interviews? She can't even pronounce "Iraq" and "Iran" properly. And she is going to beat Biden in a debate?!?! LOL!! In the words of John McEnroe - "You can not be serious!"


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brambster:

@Brutus1

If you look for traditionally conservative journalists, you will in fact find confirmation of your opinions. There are several with much the same reaction in the National Review.

Now of course many partisans will gather around their candidate even if he picked his 20-something year old daughter, especially since this happened right before the convention, but the cracks are there and I'm quite sure that there will be a growing backlash.

In my opinion, Palin is the worst VP pick since Thomas Eagleton, but it will take a while before that all becomes obvious.

I will also note that I wouldn't likely have ill feelings against Palin herself if she was running for Governor, the Senate, or a House seat of a small state. This is however like the Yankees pulling up a minor-leaguer to pitch the start of the 7th game of a World Series.

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Stillow:

I am tellin ya guys, keep slamming her. It will backfire on you. Your argument of expereince is weak, anyone remember this guy named Obama is running as the #1 with little expereince? The left is really a upset that is not just a republican, but a conservative. That is driving them nuts. The troopergate thing has a little bite, but when you get down to whats goign on with it, it won't amoun to more than a mosquito bite. Travelgate, whitewater, mostly just distractions trying to nail hillary, this will end up the same thing. She has 80% approval ratings from alaskans, that is unheard of, small state or big state.
I really think the lefts desperation on attacking her so hard means they are scared. Obama said he wanted to bring change, well here it is. Young, fresh, conservative, typical american mom.
Ya guys are in trouble on this one...I know your job is to try and destory her, but I don't think its gonna work this time.

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Stillow:

@Brutus1

Like I said, the GOP is counting on people just like you. Everyone knows the hardcore left will attempt to destory her, its your job, but her story resinates with the folks. That's why the attacks are so hard coming from the left against her. The more you guys attack her and degrade her values and qualifications, the more support she will muster. Americans are going to see you slamming on of them....just a typical american with a typical story to tell. She did it all without a singleentitlement program too.....wow, a success story that didn't require the g'ment's allmighty assistance.

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thoughtful:

@stillow

Sarah Palin is not the typical American Mom. She's Wonder Woman!

The troopergate scandal is an allegation of a very serious abuse of power.

I do see that she reflects a lot of your views though McCain doesn't, so what are hoping for, as she will be benched if McCain were to be elected. Maybe not, give her big oil and energy for consumers rather than producers etc another rip off for the US citizen to suffer.

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brambster:

Forgive me for this repost, but I think it is entirely relevant:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Palin is the worst VP pick since Thomas Eagleton in 1972.

I don't think that Palin is an offensive candidate in any way, and she definitely has an appeal to her, and with the fact that she is a woman, that was probably good for 1 to 3 points for McCain over the long-term. I'm sure that this was the real strategy. The message will publicly be that she is a Washington outsider, and the whisper will be that you can vote for a Woman despite Hillary being out.

I do believe however that the pick will backfire on McCain and here's why:

1) The lack of experience and qualifications is laughable. Having been a mayor of a town of 8,000 less than 2 years ago highlights this much more than not. Having only a B.A. in journalism doesn't suggest merit, and Alaska is of course not just a small state, but a state that has an economy so far removed from the norm that experience there isn't worth much. This lack of experience not only makes McCain's best and strongest argument against Obama completely hypocritical, it actually makes McCain more vulnerable.

2) The "bridge to nowhere" and the Alaska Republican establishment will only be highlighted even more as a result. Palin claimed that she was against the bridge to nowhere today in here coming out speech, but the facts say differently. She is on record in 2006 not only supporting the project, but also suggesting that it get done before the Republicans lost control of the House and Senate. So there was an eagerness to get such earmarks. Palin only changed her tune after Congress stipulated that the $200 million couldn't be used for the bridge, but they still sent the money to the state anyway. She canceled the project because it was about $360 million underfunded, not because she was against it. I suppose that it was best to claim she was against it as a first salvo since it would surely come up, but this will surely come up in a very public way. Palin was not only endorsed by Ted Stevens, she featured that endorsement in her own campaign commercial. Ted Stevens is not only the current poster boy for Republican corruption, he is also the long-term poster boy for earmarks with Alaska receiving far more in dollars per capita than any other state. FAR MORE. And considering the oil wealth and how that is funneled into the state, they were the least in need. She didn't run against her party, she sought their endorsements when she ran against a Republican governor that was already under investigation and sure to lose in the general election, and she used the support of the rest of the establishment to win.

3) Pandering to Hillary supporters with an inexperienced pro-life, big oil woman with bear skins on the floor of her office will be seen as an insult to the real PUMA's out there. Real PUMA's will see that she is merely a Hillary harlequin, and will recognize the pandering, and that will just make more of an issue out of what women's rights really mean. It's hard to believe that in 2008 McCain would tokenize women in this way.

4) The inexperience and lack of name recognition of Palin will in fact result in McCain being blamed by the radical right groups for his failings, and these people have no problem attacking their own. So any failure in the polls by McCain over the next couple of months will cause the mummers (which already started) to rise to shouts of incompetence on the part of McCain to choose an experienced conservative candidate. I would expect that this charge will be led by evangelicals since they were never very happy with McCain in the first place.

5) The biggest one is the Troopergate scandal. Making one call to get someone fired is questionable, but between Palin, her husband, and multiple high level staff and other elected officials call 24 or so times in order to pressure not only her own selected official, but also a lieutenant in the state troopers to deal with this guy is very damning. It only makes it more so damming that there are recordings of many of the phone calls. Firing the commissioner may have been her privilege, but firing a commissioner for not caving into improper abuse of power is very objectionable if not illegal (Bush did the same exact thing with federal prosecutors if you don't remember).

The worst part of this however is that the investigator is due to report by October 31st, just 5 days before the general election. This makes the pick sheer stupidity.

It is really a totally clueless pick. I don't think he was considering any picks that would have turned out 'great', but he did kill his best attack against Obama. If McCain can't make Obama unacceptable, he loses no matter what because McCain will never win in 2008 by trying to be the most acceptable candidate.

I figure this may take anywhere from days to a month for this to start to be seen in earnest, but I definitely expect that it will become an issue for McCain.

Regardless, I think Obama already proved himself the clear leader yesterday and the odds-on favorite to win, but McCain could have done better.

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msmc.:

This is a bad spin.. really. I work in Anchorage 20 MILES FROM WASALLA
I am a FHA Direct Endorsement Underwriter, I say who gets Financing and who does not based on Financial information I analysis and have a story that makes sense. You will not believe what I see. I have worked in Anchorage Alaska several years.. Alaska, as you know is one of the most beauitful States in America.. There are 2 parts of Alaska. The People side and the Corporate side and the two do not mix. However, are parts of the same.

The people are the sweetest and most nieve on the planet. They are the most wonderful Green protective people in America. They have recycled before it was popular maybe because of the need to conserve. I guess being so far away from the lower 48 and (AND IN THE BUSH) the expense of importing products is great.

There is the other side, the side I work on. The Corporate side. Alaska is the most courpt State in the Union. That is a fact.. I see things you can not believe they think make sense. The only thing simular in Alaska to the lower 48 are the STREET signs. These people are inter bred. and that is the truth.. They have their own rules. The media is saying Wasalla has over 9000 people.. NO, it is about 3500-3900 population and it is largely a Trailor park about 30 min. from Anchorage which has about 365,000 population, many are military. They say the State Motto is "THE ODDS ARE GOOD BUT THE GOODS ARE ODD"(this relates to the chance of finding a man in Alaska).. that is no lie.. They don't think right, they really wear 2 left shoes. You people must come and camp out in Wasalla and Anchorage for a few days so you can see what you are really dealing with. vacationing won't give you the story.

I am not impressed.. I think McCain has set himself up to lose. Just wait until the story comes out.. the real story. This is a High School Vice President. I like Sara, however, ONE HEART BEAT AWAY.. ARE YOU KIDDING.. YOU PEOPLE BETTER COME UP HERE AND SEE FOR YOURSELF.. IT IS NOT WHAT YOU THINK.. I PROMISE..

She may be playing Governor of the people of Alaska until some of these scandles die down however, she does not have any comprehension of that other part. (Corporate Government inner workings) that is so hidden from her she can't even comprehend it. These people are only tied to America by Taxes. they are connected to Amereica in very few other ways.. Hey, I work here. I see and deal with this backwards thinking every day. Otherwise, I love working in Alaska for a little while longer.

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Stillow:

@thoughtful

Like I said, I know its your job to try and discredit her, the trooper thing like you said is an alegation only. No teeth right now....McCain isn't stupid, I can promise he fully looked into that story and if had real bite to it, he would not have picked her.
But you and I do our respective jobs, support our side, but I think on this one, attacking palin will backfire. She has a great story....and lets not forget, every poll shows conservatives out number liberals quite a bit in this country....and those conservatives have been looking for a voice for a while now. Bush campaigned as one, but of course turned out to be anything but a conservative. I think palin is going to connect with people like a Clinton or Reagan did...and it has your side a bit nervous, i know you cannot admit it...and you got loons like brambster with there nonsense arguments against her, but all early signs are that this is a great choice....you have to agree, it totally re-energized the conservative base which is a huage positive.

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thoughtful:

@Stilow

I am honestly worried, GWB got elected a 2nd time after lying and taking the country into an illegal war. So anything can happen. These campaigns are selling illusions one way or another one of left and one of right.

McCain is not fit to be President, No Palin has not been vetted properly. McCain met her apparently last week in Flagstaff for an hour, for a conversation! He is very poor on detail!

She does espouse your views and I respect your views. So I am pleased with the pick for YOU!

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Uri:

HJM-UGA: Obama doesn't have "years" in the senate . He has at most 4 in the state senate, and two more in the US senate before he became candidate.

Technically she's been mayor for the time he was state senator.

I do think though that both of them are grossly unqualified, and I think McCain just picked her to show that and draw the comparison, not for any other reason cause he knows he's gonna lose.

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Uri:

@thoughtful: Chimpanzee can run Alaska?

Imagine I'd say something like "Even a chimpanzee could be a state senator". You'd call me a racist right away.

I personally think Alaska is more difficult to run than most other states. It might not be populated, but it's far, remote, has limited economic options, and the oil companies are not under its jurisdiction.

By the way, I don't remember everyone here crying out when the current California governor got the job. CA is the biggest state in the nation and his experience was fighting the predator.

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Stillow:

@thoughtful

The main attack, at least for right ow is that she is not ready to be president. One heartbeat away, etc....because of a lack of expereince. Obama has the same amount of expereince if not less, yet the left is ready to toss him right into the white house...Seems to me to be a very odd coupling on both sides. Obama with no expereince coupled with Biden who's been in the Senate since Nixon was president. On hte other, McCain with tons of time in congress and palin with pretty much none to date. Both sides are tryign to use the expeeince argument in there favor, and it hurts both sides. Its a very strange cycle to say the least. Conservatives haven't had a president in this country they really support since Reagan. If Palin survives the attacks which I think she will, she can bring conservatism back to what it was...i know that pains you, but lets not forget it won two of the biggest landslide elections in history. I can't remember the last Democrat running for president who even got 50% of the vote......there's still a sleeping giant out there who is just waiting for someone to pick up the flag again and run with it.

____________________

player:

Sarah Palin makes the case for herself. She has interpersonal skills. It is difficult to describe what she has already done to lift up the souls of mainstream everyday Americans. She is the real deal. Maybe some common sense can be injected back into our government.

____________________

thoughtful:

Uri, Undecided or Kiptin

Obama has wanted National office and has worked towards that objective for a good number of years. He is knowledgeable on a good number of the issues of the day. He has made a pragmatic choice in Biden for VP. There were more eye catching but Biden he considered to be the most qualified.

McCain has picked someone from far right field only Boskop and I considered her! But she is not a person driven by the great issues of the day. She is a social conservative and she plays well with the base.

The real issue is that John McCain is impetuous, is prone to be ill-considerate or non, thinks he understands the world outside the US in 2008 but doesn't, and has no succesful social legislation for 20 years + in the Senate - just campaign financing reform and do you call the present system great?

____________________

KipTin:

Typical misogynistic statement: "She is obviously not qualified and was only picked because of her gender." You do not even know her qualifications and you are "dismissing" her.

1992-1996 Palin: Wasilla City Councilperson. Commercial fishing business.

1992-1996 Obama: Constitutional law lecturer at the University of Chicago Law School. Civil Rights associate attorney. Directed Illinois Project Vote for 6 months.

At this point Palin has held elected office for 4 years and Obama 0 years.
-------------------------

1996-2004 Palin: Mayor of Wasilla (6 years) and next Chair of Alaska Oil & Gas Conservation Commission (2003-2004). Resigned in protest over ethics, followed by her exposing the state Republican Party's chairman for major ethics violations.

1996-2004 Obama: State legislator (1997-2004). Senior lecturer at University of Chicago Law School. Civil Rights attorney (law license inactivated 2002... Why?). Founding President and Chairman of Anneberg Challenge (in collaboration with former Weatherman Underground domestic terrorist Bill Ayers.)

At this point Palin has now held elected office for 10 years and an appointed executive position for 1 year = total 11 years (of which 7 years was an executive position). Obama held elected "legislative" office for 11 years. I'd say that they are now about even.
---------------------

2006: Palin defeated incumbent Governor Murkowski in the Republican gubernatorial primary and won the election in defeating former Democratic governor Tony Knowles 48.3% to 40.9%. She has been a full-time governor since December 2006.

2004: Obama defeated GOP last ditch nomination Alan Keyes (Maryland resident and perennial/unsuccessful candidate for public office)... ergo NO competition. Hillary was Obama's first.

Obama took office January 2005 and announced his candidacy for President on January 2007. Since then Obama has been a full-time candidate. His record in the Senate is 290 votes missed (45.5%) for the 110th Congress since it opened its first session in January 2007. In other words... Obama has been less than half-time since early 2007.

Palin has 21 months of full-time high level "executive experience." Obama has equivalent 33 months of high level "legislative" experience.

Palin has more executive experience (Obama has ZERO). Obama has more legislative experience.

Bottom line: Palin is running as VP candidate. Obama is running as Presidential candidate. Who really cares about "heart beat away" from the Presidency in Palin's case, when Obama is running for the number ONE position... an EXECUTIVE position?

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thoughtful:

Uri

The State Of Alaska own the oil, the gas, the minerals ask Sarah Palin when she eventually re-appears in front of the media.

Go to Alaska like our good friend msmc suggests and see for yourself. 99% of Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States is desert and just as remote sparsely populated etc.

The Alaskans have been ripped off for years.

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KipTin:

Oops... Make that Obama held elected office (state legislature) for almost 8 years... not 11.

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gjdodger:

Palin is Dan Quayle, but this is not 1992. The outgoing President is neither liked nor respected, the economy is in a recession, prices are spiraling through the roof (a Republican administration that couldn't control inflation?), and we're still in two protracted and in one case, extremely unpopular, wars. Palin's Neanderthalic social views will appeal to social conservatives who dislike McCain...and repel independents who are conservative on budget issues and liberal on everything else. People are already surfacing recent quotes in which she expressed ignorance about what the Veep does and the situation in Iraq. Palin was essentially the only female Republican high-office holder McCain could find who holds those social views, and he figured he could get the Religious Right as well as the disaffected PUMAs with one shot. I think he's toast.

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Brutus1:

Kiptin -

Again, seek help, partisan hack. The lies are such a joke. No mention of intelligence or education or Palin's abuse of power. No mention of community organizer status or foreign relations experience.

By the way, trooper gate has officially exploded on Palin's face. Hello Mitt!


Silly trolls.

____________________

thoughtful:

@Kiptin or Undecided

McCain needed the pick as he has absolutely no executive experience, is that right?

Did LBJ, Nixon, John Kennedy?

George W Bush did, a lot of good that has done us!

President's need judgement. Bush has got any, neither does McCain.

____________________

KipTin:

Yes... we agree "Obama has wanted National office and has worked towards that objective for a good number of years."

It is all about Obama and his ambition. He is the ultimate typical politician.

How "pragmatic" is it for someone who is campaigning against Washington Insiders to choose one of the ultimate insiders for his VP?

Palin is driven by issues of the day (education, employment, etc.)... the foremost one being ENERGY (which is the prime mover today for the economy and national security.)

I see "thoughtful" focuses on "social" legislation rather than "fiscal" issues aka the economy. So please tell us what "social" legislation Obama has succeeded in. He is promising the world, but I do not see that he has accomplished anything legislatively in the U.S. Senate.

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Stillow:

@thoughtful

Are you seeing some of the coverage of Palin out there with McCain? GOP crowds are usually not as upbeat as the DEms, but the crowds are going nuts when she comes out. She is resinating at the grass roots level. That is the danger for your side, of course you guys won't like her, you never will, but she is connecting just based on reactions of the crowds she is drawing.
I'm telling ya, that silent majoirty out there may be starting to wake up....the debates this year are going to be a realllll important event.

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Brutus1:

I love the Palin pick....it just highlights mccain's idiocy. Good luck....repubs are going to need it.

GAME.....OVER!

____________________

Uri:

@thoughtful: I know that.
My understanding though (and I am not sure it is correct, I'm far from being an expert on this),
is that all the oil companies that work in Alaska are NOT incorporated in Alaska and received their rights from the Federal government, so they are not jurisdiction of AK.
Hence I am not sure that the government of Alaska can do anything about it. In fact, it probably cant even sue the corporations in its local courts, only individuals

____________________

KipTin:

What? LBJ has 24 years experience (6 years as Senate Majority leader) in Congress. JFK had 13 and was a WWII hero. Nixon had 6 years in Congress and was Eisenhower's VP for 8 years.

Of course McCain did not pick Palin for her executive experience (but it is a positive attribute) but rather for her "reform" experience.

And in the context presented by "thoughtful"... Obama does not measure up to any of the above-- not even close.

____________________

player:

@Sillow;
I not only see it, but I feel it. She has had a profound effect on me. From all the chatter that I hear, a trap will be set at the debates. However, I don't really think that it matters. She is running for number two instead of number one. Nevertheless,I think she will handle herself well. Bright lights won't bother her a whole lot because she is use to it. I've noticed that her husband takes it in stride with ease. Just think, who would have believed that the potential 1st husband in the White House would be an Eskimo? It seems proper since Eskimos were the first people in America. I'm excited.

____________________

KipTin:

Well... Brutus1... if in fact I did lie, then please refute such with facts. Calling me a "partisan hack" better describes you and your bully attitude. You will be duly reported for any further personal attacks upon posters here.

____________________

thoughtful:

kiptin

What is executive experience?
McCain has never run anything!

____________________

Brutus1:

Silly republican trolls, keep parroting the lie that Palin is qualified. Trying to compare her to Obama is like comparing a pinto to a bmw. It just shows you have a lack of brain power. No wonder you mouth-breathers love the creationist almost-Miss Alaska so much. What a joke. The conservatives with any brains at all have bashed the female Bush (with less experience) incessantly.

Thanks for throwing the election, mccain!


____________________

KipTin:

Silly underestimating women politicians. They have had to endure much to get to where they are. I would not worry about Palin who had to fight the go ol' Alaska boys. She is also trained in journalism and even was a sports reporter at one time.

Everyone will be looking for Plain mistakes, but then that also puts more focus on Biden who has that well-earned reputation for such. And notably, the more that Palin is ravaged by MSM and Obamanation, the more women will become polarized in HER favor. The rampant sexism against Hillary has them all primed to look for the slightest affront against any woman candidate.

____________________

Stillow:

@player

She will handle any trap setup for her at the debate....i still think the expereince issue clearly favors mccain palin more than obama biden. I was considering note voting this time, but the plain pick really pushed me, mccain got my vote....so unless he comes out with a trillion dollars of entitlement spending proposals, he has my vote. Like you, I feel enrgized...i'm tellin ya, there is a conservative giant out there just waiting for the right person to lead it again.

____________________

KipTin:

Good one. Pinto (made in America... blue collar vehicle) vs. the foreign-made elitist BMW. Any more "helpful" analogies for supporting your candidate Obama?

____________________

thoughtful:

@kipTin

The only interest in VP is whether the VP has the authority, the knowledge, the judgement to take over at a minutes notice.

No question that Biden has it, Palin?

____________________

KipTin:

Also humorous... "What is executive experience?
McCain has never run anything!"

So please tell us how Obama compares!!! So all we have to compare Obama and McCain on is their legislative experience, and guess who wins?

____________________

Brutus1:

kiptin- You are a pathetic partisan hack. You stated obama has "33 months" of legislative experience. That is a lie, or you don't know how to count. Either way, it shows that you are either stupid or a partisan hack or both.
____________________________________________
*********Breaking****************
-----------------------------------

All-

There is a new scandal showing that Palin, like most creationist repubs, is in fact, a stupid LIAR!!

Here is the link:

http://mudflats.wordpress.com/

And the Anchorage Daily News has it too:

http://www.adn.com/sarahpalin/story/511471.html

I just can't wait for Biden to rip this dimwit to shreds.


Here is the beginning of the article from an Alaskan-


"Perhaps the brain was still a little fuzzy from the shock of McCain’s new VP pick, Alaska’s own governor Sarah Palin. Perhaps it was still stuck in the endless loop of wondering - why? why? why? Whatever the reason, it took more than 24 hours for Palin’s first big untruth to register with me.

Today, while I watched her hop out of the “Straight Talk Express” bus, and give the second reading of her acceptance speech, one of my fellow viewers said, “You know, I don’t remember her opposing the Bridge.” And it hit me. I don’t remember that either. A quick double-check with the third member of our watch party confirmed our confusion. We all live here. We all watch the news, read the paper, and pay attention to the local political circus, but none of us connected Sarah with her claims of rebuffing the controversial earmark. If you weren’t watching, here’s the quote from her speech:

“I championed reform to end the abuses of earmark spending by Congress. In fact, I told Congress — I told Congress, ‘Thanks, but no thanks,’ on that Bridge to Nowhere. ‘If our state wanted a bridge’, I said, ‘we’d build it ourselves’.

Reeeeally.

Check out these entries from the Ketchikan Daily News:

“People across the nation struggle with the idea of building a bridge because they’ve been under these misperceptions about the bridge and the purpose,’ said Palin, who described the link as the Ketchikan area’s potential for expansion and growth.

Palin said Alaska’s congressional delegation worked hard to obtain funding for the bridge and that she ‘would not stand in the way of the progress toward that bridge’.
8-8-06

‘We need to come to the defense of Southeast Alaska when proposals are on the table like the bridge and not allow the spinmeisters to turn this project or any other into something that’s so negative,’ Palin said.”
Ketchikan Daily News 9-28-06

Alaska Senator Ted Stevens (currently under indictment) and Representative Don Young (currently under investigation) were the bridge’s two biggest proponents. But they were unable to convince Congress to fund the infamous bridge from Ketchikan to Gravina Island at the levels it had hoped. Now, instead of Alaska paying $160 million, the cost to Alaska skyrocketed to $349 million.

After federal funding had been slashed, Palin was asked if she was still in support of funding the project. She said:

Yes. I would like to see Alaska’s infrastructure projects built sooner rather than later. The window is now–while our congressional delegation is in a strong position to assist.

Well that assistance never materialized, and Alaska’s congressional powerhouse is tumbling like a house of cards. Senior Senator Ted Stevens is under indictment on seven felony counts. Representative Don Young is under investigation and has spent more than a million dollars of his campaign fund on legal fees…and he hasn’t even been indicted yet. And although Stevens just won his primary bid handily, Young is hanging on by his fingernails while a recount is performed to determine the winner of his contest. His challenger? Sean Parnell, Palin’s Lt. Governor and also the head of the Division of Elections that is in charge of recounting the votes for his own race. You can’t make this stuff up. The third member of the delegation, Lisa Murkowski, was appointed to the U.S. Senate seat by her own father, Senator Frank Murkowski who left the senate to become the governor that Sarah Palin defeated in the 2006 primary. (Are you keeping up with me?) I could keep going, but those are the highlights.

So, if Congress had gone along and coughed up what Stevens and Young had asked for, guess what….that bridge to nowhere would have become a reality during the Palin administration. She supported the bridge every step of the way…until the funding was cut. So we decided to say, “Thanks, but no thanks. If we want a bridge we’ll build it ourselves?!” Is that like the failed earmark version of “You can’t fire me….I quit!”

The fact that “Thanks, but no thanks” was the money line for her debut as Vice Presidential candidate, and yet is a total fabrication, makes the mind reel. Is there no fact checker on McCain’s staff?

Today, Palin called in to a local radio program, and bubbled, “This is so amazeen!” Then she said that her children and she had only learned of her selection the day before the announcement was made. I think of the extensive vetting process that the Democratic VP candidates went through. Evan Bayh said that he was grilled extensively about skeletons in the closet, and even whether any of his kids had a Facebook or MySpace page that might come back to haunt him.

Apparently the Republicans don’t worry about such things. With all the potential scandals and skeletons about to emerge from the Palin closet, (troopergate, babygate, bridgegate) we in Alaska are sitting here listening to the clock tick and wondering when it will all hit the fan.

But many Alaskans are just giddy over the whole thing. The local sportscaster, after reporting on the high school basketball scores, said, “You know Sarah Palin used to be a sportscaster….and she’s the Vice Presidential candidate. So, I think I wanna do that…yeah.” (eyeroll) And one woman who was interviewed said she was totally in support of Palin because, “This is really going to put Alaska on the map. Now people are going to find out what we’re really all about.”

Because this is what we’re looking for in the next Vice President. We want Alaska to be on the map. And not in that little box in the South Pacific you guys always stuff us in. This election is about Alaska’s road to legitimacy! Sar-ah Sar-ah Sar-ah! (banging head on desk and going to bed)"


____________________

player:

@Brutus 1:
The name you have is a classic handle. He fell on his sword didn't he? I see that you folks are going to go at the creationist angle. However, did it ever occur to you in that uppity intellect that you sport, that some people have different methods of learning? Some can't learn by conventional wisdom. Some people can't learn math so they have to learn logic to get a degree. Some people like me can learn either or both. Maybe some people can't learn by scientific proofs. Perhaps they need another way. Religious creationism could provide it for them. I think that Albert Einstein reiterated as much. You people need to reason your responses more rather than to retort to empty rhetoric of name calling all the time. You could be wrong you know.

____________________

Brutus1:

Looks like the republican trolls who keep trying to (laughably) push the Rove talking points of "palin is qualified" or "palin is a good pick" don't see how amazingly ignorant they look. That's what happens when your mom is a crackhead I suppose. No wonder they believe in creationism. So pathetic that the republican party has come to this.....

"Elitists" the world over are laughing at the US.....of course when that number is 90% of the world, are they still "elitists"? Or people with a brain?

____________________

Renee127:

I am dismayed by McCain's judgement. Does he truly believe that the "pick a vagina out of a hat" strategy is sound? Does he believe that I will be so blinded by a VPs ability to reproduce multiple times to sway my vote? I am a proud Democrat but I feel angry that so many qualified Republican women were passed over for someone who has not proven herself. Say what you want about Obama's experience but he has spent two years proving to the American public that he is wise, and thoughtful. This lady is unproven, untested, and while I am sure she is a perfectly lovely person, completely unprepared for the simple VP duties let alone the presidency. McCain is desperate and it shows. It is a shame that Palin is being used for political purposes and as Juan Williams on Fox said this morning, Republicans can never again argue against affirmative action.

____________________

Brutus1:

More from a native:

"Well, this Alaskan is sitting here in disbelief. This is a total gift to the Obama - Biden ticket. As the nation scrambles to figure out who Sarah Palin IS, the thinking people of Alaska are simply mystified. I’ll be posting about this a lot later in the day after I’m awake, (it’s early a.m. here in Alaska) but first impressions:

This woman is going to be a heartbeat away from the Presidency? 2 years ago she was mayor of Wasilla, Alaska. For those of you out of state, this is as small, and backwoods as it sounds. A dark horse candidate for governor, she was elected on the ‘anybody but Frank Murkowski’ ticket. Our previous governor went down hard in his primary bid for reelection, because basically he was the worst governor, ever. People questioned whether Sarah Palin was actually qualified to be governor of a state that has 1/2 a million people in it.

McCain obviously is looking for the Hillary vote since apparently he thinks women need no other criteria than a set of ovaries to mark their ballot, right? I mean women don’t actually make policy decisions, do they?

He’s also looking for the Evangelical vote. Palin, a creationist, anti-gay, pro-lifer will appeal to this crowd. Her fondness for creationism in schools, and the recent birth of a Downs Syndrome child can’t hurt here.

Did I say recent birth of a child? Why, yes. Our new Vice Presidential candidate has four children plus an infant son. She obviously feels caring for her newborn won’t get in the way of her Vice Presidential duties.

And don’t worry fellas. There’s plenty for you. Sarah won second place in the Miss Alaska contest! Didn’t they have a card for that in Monopoly? And John McCain knows how important it is to have a trophy wife Veep on his arm.

John McCain has just done something that Obama has not been able to do yet - prove to the world unequivocably that McCain doesn’t have the judgement to be President. He will never ever be able to hold his head up and say that Obama isn’t “ready to lead”.

The pro-drilling crowd will be pleased too. Why she’s even sueing the Federal Government for daring to suggest that polar bears should be listed as ‘threatened’. Can’t have those damned bears interfering with the oil rigs.

And then there’s that annoying little ethics investigation by the Alaska State Legislature…

I think I’ll be chuckling all weekend over this. More to come later. There’s just so much fodder here. Where’s a blogger to start?"

____________________

Brutus1:

Player- That has to be THE DUMBEST post I have ever read. Maybe you should go talk to an evolutionary biologist.

You obviously lack any real education. Let me guess...two years at the local juco?

____________________

brambster:

@Brutus1

If you haven't figured it out yet, KipTin has posted under multiple names on this site, and she also has posted on over 70 different sites all the way from BET to the Asian Times.

I'm still torn as to whether she is a paid poster, or if she is just a loon. She did recently fess up to saying that she voted for Ford I think because she liked the way that his wife dressed and presented herself. Of course she could be bot a loon and a paid poster at the same time.

____________________

KipTin:

First... Brutus1 has been reported as promised.

Second... Brutus1 does not understand that Palin upset the good ol'boys in Alaska and these "reports" are attempts to get back at her. Yet, the people rate her at 60-80% favorable (depending on which poll).

____________________

Brutus1:

I believe kiptin is one of those paid mccain "staffers" that gets a bonus each time they go around parroting the campaign lies (I mean spin). There was a story on it in WAPO awhile back if I remember correctly.

Kind of sad really.....


____________________

KipTin:

Now I have AGAIN reported brambster for his continuing harassment (Your obsessive behavior is called cyber-stalking).

P.S. I never voted for Ford nor have I ever stated anything about voting based on a candidate's wife.

____________________

Robi:

To all the blind, unthinking, fox news-loving conservatives (I am not singling anybody out):

I think it is important to read Brutus' previous post about voting republican for a long time. He's not a left partisan hack (although I am a democrat) and is logical about the VP pick. I don't like Mitt or anyone else on the right, but I would agree that, besides Huckabee, they are all incredibly better candidates than Palin. This is a woman who didn't know what the VP did a month ago!

Obama went through a slew of democratic candidates and debates including the assumed-to-be democratic nominee political juggernaut Hillary Clinton. He has proved himself by enduring the entire primary season with Hillary on his back and Palin had the sense to not run and there's a reason. (more to come rest assured. I am just starting up with my debut post)

I hope at least NOW someone has told her what the VP does

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loUHRv3ipLE

P.S. It is alright to disagree with your party or your candidate. Brutus knows this and has reaffirmed my faith in the concept of a smart Republican.

____________________

brambster:

Ok, here comes the creationism stuff again. I'm sure that any moment now someone will call Obama a Muslim, and then maybe even the N-word, and finish off with a dose of gay-bashing.

It's only fitting that they call people that don't posses these opinions "elitists".

____________________

thoughtful:

@Brambster

Undecided is definitely a paid poster.

McCain showed great deliberation and judgemenet with this pick. The Conservative Republican base love it.

Do you think he's going to lose some from the centre and centre/right?

____________________

player:

@Brutus:
I'm sure my education goes a good deal further than your pathetic attempts at mockery. And that is the problem with the ObamaLibs.They think that they are so smart that no one can approach them. Hence, the elaborate Greek God atmosphere settings for the Obama acceptance speech.(They thought that Togas would be a little over the top). Its enough to make you want to howl with laughter. The sentence in the speech where Obama cried " This is not about me" was a scream. That event will go down as one of the biggest tragedy theater performances in history. It will become a mockery. Hey Brutus, it must get a little cold and lonely up on Mt. Olympus. Tell you what; we will have some moose burgers sent up to you. Maybe Oprah will bring them up to you wearing her diamond studded sunglasses that reads Obama.

____________________

DEMO:

Executive experience has been the most over used and overrated phase this election. Anyone who says Palin has more executive experience than Obama who is incredibly intelligent, well educated, successful author, State Senator, US Senator, speechwriter, Constitutional Law Professor at a top law school, editor of the Harvard Law School Review, and has been running a large and successful Presidential campaign against Hilary Clinton is blowing smoke in people’s eyes. You may not agree with Obama's positions on the issues, but you would be foolish to ignore his many accomplishments. His speech at the DNC drew almost 40 million viewers on television alone, which was more than the opening night of the Olympics. McCain realizing he was losing the election rolled the dice in choosing Palin in the hopes of garnering some attention going into the RNC. McCain met Palin once briefly before he selected her as his VP pick. It also appears he didn't vet her properly. The ethics investigation report into Palin’s behavior while in office is due to be released 4 days before the election. It's McCain's judgment that should be the issue.

____________________

thoughtful:

@player

are you a paid poster?

____________________

brambster:

@thoughtful

I think that the right-most conservatives are about the hardest partisans to peel away. They certainly won't vote for Obama, but they will be less enthusiastic and that won't help with turn out or media.

This is really about the middle. There are certainly a measureable number of middle of the line Hillary supporters that will vote on the Hillary harlequin. If Palin was experienced, that might have meant that she was a great pick.

The real question is how many others will be driven away by this pick. The people that have been responding strongly in the polls saying that Obama was unqualified and have been ranting about that for some time now have tons of egg on their faces. I expect some of them to be peeled away. I also expect some of the initial support drawn to McCain from Hillary supporters will wain when they find out that Palin is against abortions for even rape, incest and the health of the mother, that she's in favor of teaching creationism along-side evolution in public schools, and I'm sure that they will eat up the video of her shooting the automatic rifle in Kuwait.

This will wear on McCain though over time. This is the epitome of the type of judgment that Americans have learned to reject. Picking an unqualified woman for the purely political advantage of her being a woman at great risk to the country is an insult.

As I stated before, the Troopergate investigation does also have legs, and this even ruins the tag line of her being a reformer. Turns out that she's not necessarily that much different from the other Alaska politicians that are going down in scandal. The report is due on October 31st, 5 days before the election. It's like planting a story against yourself for your opponents advantage. With 24 calls from her, her closest staff, and other elected officials on her behalf, and the personal nature of her firing of the commissioner, along with the denials, this is just a dream story for the media to latch on to and run with.

If McCain shows any prolonged weakness in the polls, some conservative groups are going to start eating their own.

The bottom line is that Palin would never in a million years have been picked is she was a he.

____________________

KipTin:

Rezko's sentencing hearing is scheduled for October 28. Pastor Wright's book is due out in October. More information is coming regarding Obama's role with Ayers in the Anneberg Challenge Project. Shall I go on?

____________________

Robi:

to player:

That "temple" that you got from the Fox News talking points memo was meant to look like he was talking in front of the white house. It's a little subliminal but that's what campaigns do to try to make their candidate look presidential from time to time. And when 38 million people are watching, it's good to have Obama look presidential for the campaign.

I have not heard anything about the obama campaign saying anything remotely to what you suggest the mentality of the obama supporters. By the way, there are plenty of Republican supporters too (especially after Sarah Palin become nominee for a job she didn't know anything about a month ago).

____________________

Robi:

Bad grammar. Sorry:

I have not heard anything from the obama campaign that has said anything remotely to what you suggest the mentality of the obama supporters are.**

And now I know why I should review my posts before I actually post.

____________________

Robi:

AND ANOTHER:
sorry again...not a good first impression I imagine:

(especially after Sarah Palin became** nominee for a job she didn't know anything about a month ago)

Yes I know how to speak English properly. Yes I am an American. I will make sure to read over my future comments before posting again.

____________________

thoughtful:

@Brambster

All that said: Bush/Cheney were re-elected.

Obama was on his way to + 10 in the Gallup and + 6 in the Ras trackers. Short term or not the Obama momentum/bounce was stopped in its track.

At the end of the day we are voting for President, this was a last minute pick obviously, so this is about judgement.

Palin is a gamble I don't think the American voter cares.

McCain scares me and this VP pick frightens me. Angela Merkel, Margaret Thatcher - Palin is not.

The polls are going to be very interesting!

____________________

player:

@Robi:
Thats another good name fitting for an Obama supporter. I didn't get anything from 'Fox News'. I don't need their talking points. You do however make my case for me. Barack Obama tries to look presidential. That is my whole point. He plays a role. It is all smoke and mirrors. I do however think that the Obama liberals like Eugene Robinson and company have really made themselves look silly trying to prove Obama's experience. They were on the talking heads programs friday touting Obama as having experience because he has been running for president for over two years. This is definitely a straw grasping maneuver. The laughter has been unreal.

____________________

DEMO:

When Republicans surrogates, including Cindy McCain on Fox News Sunday, say Pain has foreign policy experience based on the fact that Russia is across the Bering Straits from Alaska shows how gullible and stupid they take us to be. McCain is going to lose the election because it’s a lousy year for Republicans and he's a terrible candidate. I also can’t imagine McCain is going to get much of bounce coming out of a convention given that it appears it’s going to be a half-hearted affair due to Gustav. It sure seems McCain and Republicans can't catch a break this year.

____________________

thoughtful:

@player

Are You a Paid Poster, as you are expressing yourself increasingly like one?

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DEMO:

More evidence McCain's staff didn't vet Palin properly.

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Brutus1_:

retards/trolls/bots will now be ignored.....

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Brutus1_:


All-

This thing is just starting! The reports and pics are coming fast and furious. Gustav might last longer than Palin.

She shows her class:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/31/palin-laughs-as-opponent_n_122776.html

"LISTEN: Palin Laughs As Opponent Is Called "B*tch," "Cancer," Mocked For Her Weight"


yikes...........

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brambster:

@thoughtful

I really don't think you can assume much of anything from two daily tracking polls that have a republican bias (compared to all others this cycle) in their results, and in a set of circumstances where the Republican VP was announced just 12 hours after the end of the Democratic convention. Mark Blumenthal has an update about this just posted today, and he has indicated the likelihood of this before even the Democratic VP pick.

IMO, and I'm sure it's the prevailing opinion, is that the Democratic convention couldn't have possibly been any better than it was for Obama. That's all you can ask for. Regardless of what these two tracking polls say, Obama had the advantage going in, and he surely has it going out.

Putting on my purely non-partisan hat, I would say that considering Palin's low expectations, if she actually houses Biden in her debate, she will have muted most of the ill effects of her being picked. I'm not sure that this is likely however.

Obama has been polling very well in the states that matter. Kerry would have died for the battleground makup that Obama has this cycle. Obama has 4 major outs, and McCain can only really defend territory and hope to swing Michigan to protect from Obama winning in any of his 4. Those outs for Obama are as follow:

1) Ohio
2) 2 of 3 in CO, NM and NV
3) Virginia
4) Florida

I think that Obama really has #2 virtually locked up at this moment. So much so that the focus may go back to purely being Ohio and Michigan which would then become must win states for McCain.

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Brutus1_:

More class from palin.........

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/31/sarah-palin-photos-a-bust_n_122816.html

"Sarah Palin Photos: A 'Busty' T-Shirt From Her College Days"

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Robi:

To Player:

Me talking about a campaign's strategy that both sides implement is not saying that Obama isn't able to be president. It's what they do. McCain's campaign does the same thing. They both do it. What Obama did and what McCain has done and will do at the RNC is called stagecraft. I will concede talking heads as making some invalid points but only if you are willing to do the same. Brutus has and as he said, he's voted Republican since 1975.

Do you also laugh when you see McCain talks about vetoing every beer? When Joe has to tell McCain the difference between Suni and Shia? When Fox News says Palin has foreign policy experience because Alaska is next to Russia? Can we get over the shallow issues and look at the things that matter?

I don't know if you can but I certainly am able to.

My acknowledging that certain arguments proposed by the Obama pundits and talking heads are flawed (McCain's side does it a lot too by the way) or that a setup for a speech comprises of stagecraft (which every campaign in modern media history has done) does not make my candidate or my resolve for him weak. Rather, I believe it makes my case for him that much stronger because I am able to throw out the partisan bull**** that surrounds the election and focus on the issues.

I hope you are able to do the same.

P.S. I didn't get what you meant by my name being fit for an Obama supporter. Please clarify.

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Brutus1_:


Alaska's own newspapers question Palin's qualifications-

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-mitchell/2-top-alaska-newspapers-q_b_122625.html


More about the abuse of power-

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/211769.php

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Brutus1_:


"Sarah Palin's mother-in-law uncertain about how she'll vote"

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/republican_race/2008/08/30/2008-08-30_sarah_palins_motherinlaw_uncertain_about.html


If there is this much right now, what happens in a month or two?

Wow, mitt and huckabee must be laughing right about now. Mccain just pooped in his pants.

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Blog_Bart:

Palin a flip-flopper?! Say it ain't so...

Palin touts stance on 'Bridge to Nowhere,' doesn't note flip-flop
By TOM KIZZIA - Anchorage Daily News

http://www.adn.com/sarahpalin/story/511471.html

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Brutus1_:

Robi -

No point trying to argue with the trolls on this board. They are creationist knuckle-draggers. You may have better luck trying to teach calculus to a chimpanzee.


It is embarassing how the religious right hijacked the republican party.

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Robi:

Just to be fair:

Another grammatical error:
Do you also laugh when you see McCain talk** about vetoing every beer?

Also, Brutus:

More and more you're sounding like a liberal. Or is your hate for Palin that strong?

I really don't like her too and I might be bringing up points in the future but, for a Republican, you are really harping on it. I'm not attacking you, but I just want to know if you're THAT angry about it.

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DEMO:

Sarah Palin: the making of the candidate

"Her administration had the appearance of paying absolutely no attention to any of the rest of the unglamorous side of government," said Hawker, "whether it be dealing with human services, public services, highways, all the routine aspects."

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zotz:

The "executive experience" argument is a total red herring. We have to ask what kind of experience is it and how relevant is it to the huge problems this country faces at home and abroad. In Palin's case the answer is that her experience is irrelevant to the war on terror (with all due respect for the AK National Guard) and irrelevant to the nation's economic problems, except for her support for ANOTHER RED HERRING, namely the contention that we can drill our way to energy independence. When she was first elected as governor she said that she wanted to approve "the bridge to nowhwere" and implied that she wanted to take advantage of other federal earmarks while they were still available. She came out against the bridge only after it looked like it wasn't going to be approved. So the maverick reformer image is also questionable.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/30/palin-repeatedly-professe_n_122686.html

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Robi:

Forgive this Naive attempt at a productive conversation. But can we all try to judge everyone on their stances on issues? Just throwing that out there...

By the way, I still have yet to find out what Palin thinks about anything relating to foreign policy That's why I want someone to tell me what she believes the United States should do about the threat of a powerful China utterly eliminating a free and practically sovereign Taiwan.

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Brutus1_:

I told you guys it was going to blow up -

The latest is that the Down's Syndrome baby is not even Palin's! It is her daughter's!! LOL!

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/things-that-mak.html

"Questions for the McCain-Palin campaign:

Where has Bristol Palin (far right, holding Trig, with a ring on her wedding finger) been for the past year? Has she been attending high school? Or was she absent because of infectious mononucleosis for between five and eight months, as is now being reported on the Internet?

Why would a 43 year old woman, on her fifth pregnancy, with a Down Syndrome child, after her amniotic fluid has started to leak, not go to the nearest hospital immediately, even if she was in Texas for a speech?

Why would she not only not go to the hospital in Texas, but take an eight-hour plane flight to Seattle and then Anchorage?

Why would she choose to deliver the baby not in the nearest major facility in Anchorage but at a much smaller hospital near her home-town?

Why did the flight attendants on the trip home say she bore no signs of being pregnant?
It strikes me as likely that there are reasonable answers to these questions - more reasonable than the only one given so far -

"You can't have a fish picker from Texas," said Todd - and the rumors buzzing across "the Internets" and the press corps are unfounded and unseemly. There must be plenty of medical records and obstetricians and medical eye-witnesses prepared to testify to Sarah Palin's giving birth to Trig. There must be a record of Bristol's high school attendance for the past year. And surely, surely, the McCain camp did due diligence on this. But the noise around this story is now deafening, and the weirdness of the chronology sufficient to rise to the level of good faith questions. So please give us these answers - and provide medical records for Sarah Palin's pregnancy - and put this to rest."


WOW!!


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Brutus1_:

Robi -

I just hate the religious right of the party - that's all. They are an embarassment to republicans, Americans, and humans in general. Without them, Bush wouldn't have been elected. I respect the ideals of a true conservative Yale man, like George HW Bush.


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brambster:

Just a little warning. "Brutus1" recently became "Brutus1_". Probably the result of the resident left-wing nutcase.

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Robi:

To Brutus:

I don't think these stories have blown up yet, if true.

They will blow up when CNN, ABC, NBC and CBS report them 24/7.

That's when things blow up so let's not get ahead of ourselves. I don't want your next post telling me she's a Muslim.

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Joseph Marshall:

This is all good clean fun, but either being appalled or being overjoyed by Palin misses two points: She may or may not be "inexperienced", but that is not the danger to McCain. And she is a grave danger.

The danger is that she is totally uninformed about a whole host of issues that she must address on the national political scene [such as "nuclear proliferation"]. Her previous political offices never got her anywhere near to these, and I seriously doubt that she's much of a reader about them on her own.

She has only a few short weeks before she has to go unscripted on national television and appear to know something about these major national issues while she debates with Joe Biden. And she can't take those weeks off to thoroughly read the position papers. Most of the time she has to be out there rallying the troops.

If she pulls this off, she will certainly have my respect. And if she doesn't she will have my sympathy, because McCain and his people are asking something of her that is perilously close to impossible, and may obliterate her entire future in politics if her ticket loses.

So far, the McCain campaign has kept her within her area of competence in the preliminary interviews. She did halfway decently on ANWAR, but her interviewer clearly knew far less about it than Palin did and merely asked cream puff questions. Sooner or later Palin is going to have to swing at fastballs.

The second point is why McCain did this in the first place. This boils down to one word: turnout. His campaign is in deep trouble and he knows it.

For all the fuss, his commercials have done essentially nothing to dent the consistent 2 percentage point lead Obama has kept since spring. And whenever Obama gets any really favorable press, that lead pops up to around 6 points.

Even worse than that, McCain has never cleanly broken through the 45 percentage point barrier and so has never once come close to a majority popular vote. Obama has been flirting with this 50 percent line off and on all summer.

And even worse than that, at the moment there is only one state with a sizable number of electoral votes that McCain can absolutely count on: Texas. Every other such state is either clearly Obama's or very much still in play.

He is not cutting into Obama's totals, he is not making serious inroads on the undecideds, and he is not locking up a significant number of electoral votes.

So he has to have every possible voter, who would never under any circumstances vote for Obama, in the voting booth voting for McCain. This largely means drumming up excitment among the "values voters". The effect of Palin on this voting group should by now be obvious and require no further remark.

But as we can see even on this comment page, for some time now other members of the Republican Party have been getting a little fed up with their values voter siblings.

If Palin crashes and burns McCain will risk his turnout among these other Republicans and may easily lose a majority among the undecideds.

On November 4th a 2 point lead for Obama should easily translate into 280+ EC votes. And a 6 point lead will be a 300+ landslide that may well also lead to a 60 seat Democratic Senate.

McCain is taking a very big gamble, but, upon reflection, I don't think he had much choice.

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Robi:

To brambster:

Nice catch. You think it's the same guy? Or someone else? I didn't get what you meant by the "resident left-wing nutcase" comment.

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Brutus1_:

Holy sh!t

It's true -

Take a look at the pic in this link - that is Super Tuesday of 2008 - at 8 months pregnant!!

http://www.adn.com/politics/story/339576.html

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-69834

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Brutus1_:

Umm, oookay. Yeah, every left-winger respects G HW Bush. Whatever. I call it like I see it. You can put lipstick on a pig......

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Robi:

Brutus1_:

Umm, oookay. Yeah, every left-winger respects G HW Bush. Whatever. I call it like I see it. You can put lipstick on a pig......
________________________________________________
huh???

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zztk2j:

Brutus,
Saying Obama has more experience than Palin is a stretch at best. The fact that your praising Obama for his experience and bashing Palin for hers is enough to question the honesty of your comments. These seem more like Obama talking points than anything else.

Are you sure Obama has surrounded himself with serious well-informed people? Bill Ayers, Rev. Wright, and Tony Rezko wouldn't fit that definition for for me.

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Robi:

To zztk2j:

I was hoping we'd be done with stupid crap like this, but ok, I'll play along for a little bit.

Ted Stevens endorsement, supporting bridge to nowhere then saying you don't, "what exactly does the VP do" exactly one month ago.

Plus, none of the people you mention are Obama's advisors in his campaign. Those are the people to look at if you are going to judge a candidate.

But seriously....CUT THE CRAP

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brambster:

@Robi

He used to be called something like Voice_99 as well as some other things. He had a habit of posting links to places like the Huffington Post. It's an old tactic to from message boards to impersonate others.

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slobone:

My fellow Democrats.

Please do not underestimate Sarah Palin, at least before you've read the Op-Ed piece she wrote for the Times on the polar bear:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/05/opinion/05palin.html?scp=1&sq=palin%20polar%20bear&st=cse

Thoughtful, well-reasoned, even-handed -- she almost had me agreeing with her.

I suppose you could claim somebody else wrote it for her, but as I said -- way too early to start writing her off as a net liability for McCain.

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Robi:

To slobone:

How about her opinion about India and Pakistan as it relates to nuclear proliferation? Or China and Taiwan? (I specialize in US China foreign policy)

I like them but screw the polar bear issue for now. I want to hear what really matters in the elections pertaining to the issues.

BTW: I am not judging Palin on this, but the story that her fifth child is in fact her 16 year old daughter Bristol's is very interesting and I am reserving judgment on whether or not it is true until I learn more facts about the case. But if it is true, that would not look good for her with a lot of people (which I do not associate myself with).

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Robi:

Try to be objective when answering this question:

Will Ralph Nader or Bob Barr have a significant impact in the election?

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zotz:

Haven't we had enough lying in the past 8 years? Seriously, if this baby story is true Palin is finished and, as a reflection on McCain's judgement, so is he.

Personally, I don't believe the story. It's too good to be true. (Sorry, but I'm one of those cynical guys Obama talks about)

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Robi:

To zotz:

The cynical part is that the country can't be changed (I'm an obama supporter) just so ya know. I think I could speak for Obama supporters when I say that I'm happy to hear that you're skeptical about such a story being true (since we all know the lies spread about Obama).

But a Digg article I read had a lot of interesting stuff that was corroborated by Alaskan newspapers (not tabloids). I still don't know yet if true or not but you should do some research on your own and make your own conclusions cause I'm doing it right now and, even though I had the same stance as you did, I'm not sure anymore about this.

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Bartkr:

Unless you folks find some common ground this discussion does not have much sense. For simplicity I will divide the two groups here into Red and Blue.
Blue says:
1. "Palin is not qualified"
Red responds:
1. a) "Palin is as qualified as Obama" - which is NOT TRUE
1. b) "Palin does not have to be qualified - see Arnold in CA and btw VP is not a president" - I could agree with here if MCCain was not 72 and had no health problems

Red says:
2. "Palin will energize conservatits, bring women voters and "men-working-whites" to Republicans"
Blue responds:
2. a) "Stupid conservatists, stupid women, stupid Americans" - I do not agree with this - this is called democracy - you like it or not
2. b) "Women will not fall for this - Palin is no Hillary" - We will see. I think that Blue is right here.
2. c) "men-working-whites will not fall for this - Palin is no man" - maybe, but she has nice ass (sexist? - yes, men are sexists - and again democracy rulez)

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Robi:

To Bartkr:

I think there are a lot of different democrats saying a lot of different things. Don't put us all together. I guess the Republicans would say the same thing.

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KipTin:

Those people who are spreading this rumor that the baby is not Sarah's but her daughter's are IDIOTS. I have seen photos of Sarah Palin pregnant around the first of April. Do a Google image search if you do not believe me. Here's one--
http://alaskareport.com/news48/x61145_trig.htm
Of course some of you would never be satisfied unless it was a nude profile and then you would probably say that it was Photoshopped.

(P.S. All those guys at the Governor's meeting from where she left to go home to deliver sure thought she was pregnant, too.)

These kind of garbage rumors are truly disgusting.

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brambster:

Holy crap! I saw a couple of comments about this rumor of Sarah Palin covering for her daughter in claiming that the child was hers, but the picture of Sarah Palin when she was supposedly 8 months pregnant is certainly quite convincing on it's own if it is really true.

It's almost inconceivable however that the Republicans and even Palin would bring such an obvious game-ender to to VP ticket. Then again it was almost equally inconceivable to hear about Spitzer and hookers, or Lary Craig and other gay men in public bathrooms.

This is one of those stories that I really hope is not true, but I'm not dismissing the possibility any more until I hear some more reputable group put this together.

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Robi:

To KipTin:

I didn't say either way. There is a lot of information that points to it as well as that one picture and I will look for more. What I will say for sure is that releasing medical records of her being admitted into the hospital in alaska (even though she was going through labor while in TEXAS and took an 8 hour flight back while going through labor) would clear things up.

I respect privacy so I would not call on her to do so. But it would surely end things a lot quicker. I'm still looking up information that support both sides about it. I'm not ruling anything out yet.

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brambster:

Ok, I've read enough about Babygate. Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions (well obviously), but right now my only question is whether Palin will even make it to the nomination at the convention.

I said earlier that Palin was the worst pick since Thomas Eagleton, but I think Palin tops that now.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/31/145838/319/386/581332

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/30/121350/137/486/580223

It shouldn't take but 1 to 3 days for the press to fully expose this. It also ought to take the McCain campaign less than 24 hours to put the rumors to rest with the release of medical records and birth certificates (this isn't China of course). The clock is ticking.

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Robi:

I'm beginning to think...(by the way I have to mention I feel like a conspiracy theorist and I am disgusted at myself for looking into this including when I don't care that much about it cause she still sucks)

What if the RNC wants the Obama campaign to spread rumors like this and other stuff and try to shed light on it if it's true. And then blame Obama for the ultimate politics as usual brand. Then she pulls herself out and Romney gets in or the Minnesota guy? It's a huge stretch. But if it's true I want you all to call me god. BTW I think it's about .000001% chance of being true (the RNC plan aspect not the pregnancy itself).

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brambster:

No way Robi. This would put McCain down for the count. He failed to vet his VP pick, and just simply chose her because she was a woman. That's the type of idiocy that the Bush presidency is known for, and it's not a good statement in that light.

The time's ticking away. If this is true (which I believe it likely is at this point). The most graceful thing for Palin to do would be to bow out now before the actual nomination and claim that she feels that it isn't her time and it would be too stressful on her family (of course the press would eventually expose the story). Tomorrow is an excellent opportunity as it is Labor day and also landfall for Gustav. It would therefore have it's smallest impact if done tomorrow. Every day following will be increasingly worse, and it would be the exact opposite kind of spectacle that Obama put on in Denver.

These campaigns surely both know exactly what is going on in the blogs, and Andrew Sullivan is all over this story too. I'm guessing it will blow up on Tuesday or Wednesday, but of course the caveat being if it is true. The national media absolutely won't touch this without proof, or a complete lack of proof. People don't have babies in vacuums.

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Robi:

To brambster:

I'm reading the blogs and I'm already hearing chatter here and there about the Obama campaign saying things like if she's able to be a good mother and a VP at the same time. Of course we know the Obama campaign wouldn't say something as STUPID as that especially when they were good about that kind of thing against Hillary.

The point is that someone is saying that the Obama campaign is saying such things already and I don't know if they will try to pin this on them as well. I agree with you with the fact that there seems to be very little evidence except for 1 photo proving contrary to what we're saying. But with all the other photos, that 1 does not stand on its own.

It's not like she is the governor of NY where the media is VERY good at this kind of stuff. I could conceive the reciprocity of what would happen to a figure or a news organization that whispers a word of this about a governor with an 80% approval rating. It would be career suicide.

Medical records are the ultimate proof. If Obama has to time and time again prove he's not a muslim, she should prove at least once with irrefutable evidence that she gave birth to trig.

As you said, this isn't China and medical records can't be forged. They show the medical records and I will stop talking about this forever.

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zotz:

The sign that we know that there is something to the baby story is when it starts being reported on Politico or TPM. Even Huffington is reporting it as a rumor. Dailykos might have got it wrong and everyone remembers what happened to Dan Rather in 2004, an entire career down the tubes because of one sloppy investigation.

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Robi:

To zotz:

I completely agree. I said that a lot earlier saying to Brutus1_ that until it hits the major networks, it's probably not true. Take it from me, I am a cynical guy. But there is something really really wrong with this story. Including the pregnancy comparison of her 7 months with her first child and her 7 months this year. I am still undecided until a major news source that is credible breaks the story. That is why I am still not making up my mind and giving her the benefit of the doubt. But check this out:

"The campaign has made the entire story of this pregnancy and birth a part of its narrative to portray Palin as a morally superior being who is therefore deserving of the second-highest office in the land.

There is a serious possibility that this narrative is completely false, that, in fact, Palin's daughter became pregnant, and that she decided to take the following steps: first, hide the pregnancy by withdrawing her daughter from school; and second, pretend that the child was hers, in the process lying to everyone around her, including the public and her staff. If she did this, one must then ask, why? Certainly, it was preferable to an abortion. But why couldn't she simply admit that her daughter got pregnant at sixteen? Palin could have served as a wonderful role model of family support for a pregnant teen, and obviously she would have helped to raise the child. Instead, Palin sent a message that her daughter was shameful, and that lying is better than the truth." (The Daily Dish)

This is why this should be addressed and ended with medical records. News organizations can do it like "we want to be responsible and dispel the rumors for you so give us the medical records and we'll let everyone know" They did a similar thing with Obama not being Muslim and nobody was fired because of it.

As of right now, I am convinced that, because the McCain campaign made it a part of her platform for being VP, they should release the medical records to clear this up.

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brambster:

80% approval rating my ass. In a recent poll about Troppergate, 87% thought that she was lying about it (and she and her staff have already been found to have lied in their public statements and the proof that has been released). Those are old polls of her approval. Spitzer was up near that too when he first took office...then he had the New York State Troopers track the Republican head of the state senate...and then he was caught paying for hookers. His approval rating even before the hooker thing was around 40%.

The Obama campaign won't touch this with a 10 foot pole. If the story is true, the media will uncover this in a heartbeat, and without any prodding, and they're already looking. The AP is releasing old photos of Palin pregnant, and Andrew Sullivan of The Atlantic has posted about this at least 3 times.

In Alaska alone, being that it is such a small state, and being that is is so unconsequential for a mother to lie for her daughter's sake, I can understand them leaving it alone. I can't however believe that a good mother would drag her young daughter into the national spotlight by not disclosing this to the McCain campaign and then having it dug up by the press. Then again, maybe the McCain campaign was aware of this and thought they could keep it hidden and actually use the pro-life story as red meat for their evangelical radicals. It's either a co-conspiracy, or the McCain campaign did the worst job of vetting a VP pick ever.

Remember, just a month or so ago we thought that Edwards having a love-child during an affair was "tabloid trash". The major press outlets had no proof of this until the Enquirer got the photographic proof, then it became as obvious as the sun. This should be a lot easier to prove than that as faking who had a baby isn't easy to do.

If Palin was a normal mother that was looking after her daughter, I would applaud her, but a Governor, much less a VP candidate, this really betrays the public trust and could cause a lot of pain for her poor daughter. I can't imagine being 16 and having a mother running for VP, much less being a major player in the hottest story of the year should it turn out to be true. That's just really selfish. It's practically unthinkable that anyone would risk their daughter in this way. I hope it's not true, but I really doubt it.

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Robi:

To brambster:

Are you Andrew Sullivan because it's interesting that you mentioned him and he has a quote from these postings. It's the one about Brutus and being a republican and not voting for mccain cause of Palin. Odd...

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Robi:

oh my...nevermind...Brutus posted that at approx. 2PM..Andrew Sullivan posted his thing at approx. 10 AM...

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brambster:

LOL, no I'm definitely not Andrew Sullivan, or anyone that you have ever heard of, nor anyone involved in any form of politics or journalism whatsoever.

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brambster:

Well, that's certainly odd:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/the-shock-of-pa.html#more

Had to look for it to see what you were talking about.

Et tu, Brute?

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zotz:

There is just something odd about this. When she was at the governor's convention in Dallas hundreds of people saw her. She gave a speech, so it must have been obvious that either she was or was not pregnant. Daily Kos has come up with some peculiar photos but my common sense bell is clanging. You can't fake being 9 mos. pregnant unless you are wearing a fake belly. Is Daily Kos suggesting that? This thing is just way too weird!

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Robi:

To zotz:

Is there a picture of her at that convention? I wouldn't mind seeing it

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Robi:

Also, apparently the flight attendants didn't even know that she was pregnant. So, if they didn't notices while she was on the plane, maybe the convention people didn't notice either?

I'm saying that would go towards the possibility that she was not pregnant and didn't even look it at the convention she was at.

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Robi:

I am sucking at grammar today:

So, if they didn't notice** while she was on the plane, maybe the convention people didn't notice either?

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zotz:

Interesting speculation but it's time for me to go outside for my nightly UFO spotting. Last night I saw three! LOL!!
C-ya

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KipTin:

Are you all guys talking about Palin's pregnancy, labor, and birth? Sure sounds like it. CLUELESS.

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Stillow:

The left is getting extremely desperate. I thought forging documents in 2004 was bad, but this......the left is hopeless. At least they are evolving, forged documents to forged pregnancies. Year after year the far left gets more sick.
......and you guys honestly wonder why you can't win? Try growing up, maybe you will do better.

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saywhat90:

i am a an obama supporter and i am not so sure palin is a good or bad pick. i mean sure people say she is energizing the base and all that bug that is only an assumption not a fact. it is as much an assumption to think the dem party is unified. a few thousand doesnt speak for a million. you can say what you want but no everyone is happy with vp picks on either side of the political. american politics is in such a sad state right. no longer do we address issue but we work how can make the other guy look evil. each side has valid points for and against about palin.with the exceptions of the attacks on someones character which makes a debate invalid.heres the deal.i dont have any question concerning palin or obama experience. experience does not always make a great president. nor does being a soldier or a community organizer necessarily qualify someone for president.being governor for any amount of time does not neccesarily make you qualified for being president.and lastly neither does being a senator qualify you. it the american people(not matter what party they are in)who makes you qualified for the job of president. they make the choice ased on what they in there president.so all this talk of who is qualified is silly. it was a silly arugument against barack and it a silly one against palin. the american people are the judge and jury of the election. the candidates must each make their case to why they able to lead. it is obvious that mccain and obama made their cases on why they should be the mominee for president. now they msut both make their case for why they should be or next president. bottom line they campaign we decide. thats it.enough said.

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Basil:

@saywhat90
You have a point, but if McCain picked someone out of the phone book, the public would rightly wonder if 60 days is long enough to feel confident about who they were.
Whatever else you can say about Obama, he's a leader on a large scale. Palin isn't.

It may have been a typo, but "mominee" is good.

I spoke with someone in the state parks dep't. in Alaska who said he'd switched from D to R just to vote for Palin, but who is totally convinced that she can't stand up under the scrutiny of vetting.

Given McCain's unpopularity with the R's evangelical base, Palin can only help there. But the vast majority of voters rightly regard her values and qualifications as a bizarre (and thin) mix.

Virtually no Hillary supporter who actually would have voted for Hillary can handle Palin's positions. It's like a Clarence Thomas moment for them--"You want a replacement for Thurgood Marshall? How about this, chumps?"

R's can counter that Obama's never been a governor, but it's cynical and disingenuous on their part (what a surprise).
Being governor of Alaska is like being the mayor of El Paso, Texas, but with nobody living in Houston, Dallas, Austin, San Antonio, Galveston, Lubbock, Laredo, Brownsville, Crawford etc, etc.--and with the El Paso population spread out over an area more than twice the size of Texas. It's like being the leader of the outback--an interesting job that bears no resemblance to the one she's up for now.

The governor of Alaska represents less than 10% of the residents in Obama's Senate district.

Being mayor of Wasilla, Alaska is like representing 5% of Obama's district in the Illinois legislature.
(Being governor of Texas qualifies you to be the worst president in history.)

So...she doesn't know anything about cities, the world, Iraq, climate change, the military (except for her son, but she said she hadn't been following the war), the federal government, the lower 48, or the job McCain's caretakers have chosen for her.

That makes her the ideal candidate for the modern Know-Nothing Party.

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Stillow:

@Basil

That was a nice long speech....however based on the left's insane attacks against her, espeically the latest about faking a pregnancy, its quite obvious she scares you guys. If she was no big deal and such a poor pick, you guys would not be trying so hard to slam her....even to the point of making stuff up. I suppose next she will be a neo nazi secret spy who is bent on taking over the world while posing as a moher of five? You guys are getting pathetic, your arguments weak at best....and now that you are makign stuff up proves your desperation. Go back to Kos and get some cropped photo's or soemthing....ou guys are getting more nutty by the day.

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Robi:

To Stillow:

It's not the left's attack. This is not a DNC attack ad. They are people who have heard a series of events that makes them want to investigate. I have said I don't know yet if it's true or not. But these are just people and not an organized assault.

Don't talk to me about low tactics. Unlike the left, McCain had supporters that held rallies that kept on shouting Barak Hussein Obama as if it was a curse word. It is the right that makes up crap about Obama being Muslim so don't talk to me about low tactics. If I remember correctly, the left didn't publish a smear book about McCain.

The fact is I never said it is a fact that Palin did this cover-up. It is incredibly odd that the series of events that occurred did and they made me look into things. I always said I would shut up right away if medical documents were produced. But aside from 1 picture, I haven't heard anything contrary to the cover-up theory and believe me, I'm looking.

So don't talk about making stuff up because, last time I recall, Karl was on your side and the electoral map is heavily favoring Obama.

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Basil:

I'm assuming the pregnancy thing is untrue. What is true is that she knows next to nothing about national issues, and she's up for a national position.
I get it that you're enthused about her pro-life position, based on your concern with partial-birth abortion. It's an honest opinion I and more than half the voters happen to disagree with, but it doesn't make Sarah Palin a leader of anywhere that isn't loaded with moose.

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Basil:

I'm assuming the pregnancy thing is untrue. What is true is that she knows next to nothing about national issues, and she's up for a national position.
I get it that you're enthused about her pro-life position, based on your concern with partial-birth abortion. It's an honest opinion I and more than half the voters happen to disagree with, but it doesn't make Sarah Palin a leader of anywhere that isn't loaded with moose.

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Stillow:

@Robi

Maybe you lived on Mars in 1988 and 1992. The dems made a "huge" deal about Quayle's middle name. J. Danforth Quayle. Tried to assert he was rich and out of touch simply by using his middle name. Again, whining abut the use of his middle name is a weak argument. The anti Obama book was written by McCain or his campaign was it? It was written by a non campaign member....just like the loons claiming palin's pregnancy was fabricated are not in Obama's campaign......are they? You trash Alaska for being low on population...well Biden represents the same amount of people, is he unqualified now? Give me the number of people that hav eto live in a city before being mayor actually counts as expereince? What is the #? 100,000? 1,000,000? What is it? What's the # for being governor, how many people need to live in a state before being governor counts? If your side keeps telling me it doesn't count as expereince because of the low population, then tell me what # does count? If that's your argument then you should be able to give me a #.
What has Rove made up now? Forged docs like your side did in 2004?
Can you tell me one prominant GOP source calling Obama a muslim? Just one will do.
Your side is getting desperate....the arguments are weak....very very weak. The fact the Kos is going after her pregnancy is just a form of sexism...maybe next he rhair will be fake? Maybe she's not even a woman?

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Robi:

She doesn't know anything and believing in creationism indicates exactly that. As I said before, I'm not thrilled about the Republican party as a whole this year (or for the past 8)and I was ready for Mitt Romney and to criticize his policies. But at least I had policies to criticize and debate. This woman doesn't have one foreign policy stance. She didn't even know a month ago what the VP does. I mean COME ON! There are a lot of moderate republicans that have their jaws dropped and are looking to their left and never looking back. There's a reason for that.

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Stillow:

@Basil

Most people oppose partial birth abortion....they also oppose killing babies who are born after surviving an abortion attempts, which of course Obama supports based on his own vote. This may be a shock to you, but Palin's support is not limited to people who happen to think killing babies might just be immoral. She is a reformer who took on a corrupt incumbant in her own party.
Please keep beating on her...it will backfire. Reagan was pro life and he won two landslides in this country. Bush, not that I support him, but he is pro life and won two elections as well. You can try and disqualify people based on abortion, but history has shown it does not work.

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Stillow:

@Robi

You did not give me a #....look at all the attacks on her, its because she lacks expereince...tell me how big a city counts and how big a state counts...its a simple question.

As to creationism....the left is the party of choice is it not? I personally beleive in a version of Intelligent Design, but why can't we teach all popular theories? You may not agree with it, I may not, but millions and millions do, what's wrong with providing the info tostudents and letting them "choose" which makes more sense to them? Aren't you the party of choice? Or is killing babies the only choice the left actually supports? Just clear it up for me please.

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Robi:

Your rhetoric is scary. My side? Your side? This discussion is exactly what's wrong with this electoral process.

I never said anything about population being an indicator of anything so don't generalize me. And don't generalize me with the democratic party of 1988 or 1992. I was going to vote for McCain against Gore in 2000 and planned on doing it again. But then he lost his mind.

Fox News constantly suggests that he's a Muslim. The commentary about the fist jab with his wife is how they put that idea there without being sued for slander.

Regardless, all these trivial arguments should be left at the door and I see how easy it is to get involved in this crap. So I'm done with these frivolous arguments about babies and smear books done by the right. How about the issues?

Sarah Palin must be on of the worst VP picks I have ever heard of. Incredibly Anti-choice, anti-birth control which is a WHOLE other matter than abortion. A creationist that believes that man-made global warming is a myth. She believes that drilling is the way out of our energy crisis when experts say is will take up to 10 years to have the oil from Alaska or wherever she wants to drill. She has no ability to designate a suitable supreme court justice and has no position on foreign policy that I'm aware of (I didn't say experience I said POSITION). This is not talking points, this is common sense that a lot of moderate republicans are absolutely furious about. It is important to say that McCain attacked Obama on experience and said that he would pick a VP that had a lot of experience. Now he has shown that he either doesn't believe in that argument by picking Palin.

Enough with the stupid crap. Let's talk about the issues.

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Robi:

killing babies? and you told me to grow up. Creationism=intelligent design. but that's not the point. That's YOUR belief that belongs in YOUR church. Science is the non-religious academic that is used by all religions and has a lot more credibility than any religion in the world. What are we using right now? Did religion create computers or did science? It happens to work the way science says it should through constant testing. It would be hard to teach all the theories of creation according to Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Greek mythology etc. This nation is meant to be secular and the first amendment affirms that cause. Creationism can be taught in churches, just not in federally funded schools that other religions have access to.

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Robi:

Now he has shown that he doesn't believe in that argument by picking Palin.**

____________________

Stillow:

@Robi

You're amazing. A fist pump equals being a muslim? That is the best you have? That justifies your statement of people on the right calling him a muslim? What is this comedy hour tonight?
Right after you give your lame lets get over the crap line, you say she has got to be the worst VP pick....again, are you serious or just messing with me tonight?
Define anti choice? Is that just being opposed to killing babies? Or does "anti choice" refer to a whole slew of choices, say teaching all theories in a classroom or choosing which school you can attend....please clarify if Palin being anti choice only related to killing babies or not...
Please provide me a link to where palin has declared she opposes birth control....or a video clip where she claims it...either will do.
A lot of people don't buy into man made global warming. NASA itself has said all solar bodies from Mercury to Neptune show signs of warming up...they think its due to a larger than normal solar cycle. Unless they have a big SUV problem on Saturn? I see nothing wrong with this position, as man many many Americans beleive man made global warming is nonsense...since it was only 25 years ago those same scientists told us the next ice age was coming....now its warming....i'm sure it will flip again soon.
She supports all forms of energy production, solar, wind and yes drilling. So do 76% of Americans...want more drilling. I see nothing wrong with the do-everything approach.
Her position is she would appoint conservative justices like Roberts. Again, I see nothing wrong this position. Its a poltical difference you have with her..Lastly you point out expereince again....so is being mayor and then governor not expereince? Reagan was a governor, the people seemed to like him. Clinton was a governor. But again, Alaska doesn't count right?

Its not crap my freinds, most of it is points you cannot refute which is why you resort to that line.


____________________

Stillow:

@Robi

This may come to a shock to you, but abortion is just that, killing the life of a baby. Do you have a different definition? Most babies can survive outside the womb at 24-28 weeks. So is aborting a baby at 32 weeks not murder? Don't get offended for the termonology, abortion is simply what it is, the killing of unwanted babies. Support the act or don't....but that is what it is.

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saywhat90:

when you call it a terrorist fist jab it does.i mean who do you think americans believe terrorist are? do you honestly think that was not intended to question obamas faith or loyalties. let see the fox breaking news story that barack went to a madrassa as a child
(untrue as indicated by cnn). lets see fox news(sean hannity in particular) not questioning corsi about his alleging that barack is related to odinga who is a muslim and leader of kenya. shall i go on. now of course there have been attacks on john mccain that are out of line. but noone has ever questioned his loyalty to this country. they have baracks.charles krauthammer,karl rove,bill sammon, and bill kristol to name a few. and those arent even the extreme right group. rush limbaugh is the worst of them. and he is the most prominent republican name on radio. and before you try to pull that what prominent republican politician has said it you ask for a prominent republican thats all. so there you are. to finish i dont mind you being a hardline republican.do all you want for your party.but lets not sit here and pretned that there hasnt been unwarranted attacks against baracks patriotism.you can say judgement is what is being questioned. but saying that barack want to win a election than win a war is ridiculous.and downright insulting. you are basically accusing him of treason.

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saywhat90:

as far as the abortion issue. i believe whole that a baby has right to live upon conception.that is my religious belief. and i am also an opponent of same sex marriages. however, to impose my religious beliefs on someone who does not accept is wrong. to make a law that satisfies a point of view is wrong.no matter how much i may disagree with those two issues i cannot in good conscious impose a theocratic lifestyle on other americans who may not feel the way i do. it is why i have never voted republican. not because of a hatred of the party but of flawed ideology of you will like what i like or else you are unamerican.traditiona american values or not the same for all americans. and i will not push my faith my choices or my desire on another human being unless they seek my opinion of it or ask my guidance on it.

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TT:

I am an Obama supporter, however I think most experts and pundits are missing the point and should stop bashing Palin. Her story resonates and is similar to the story of many woman and the appeal could be as basic as most women feel understimated and taken for granted. Which is what is happening with Palin. Furthermore the truth is we do not know much about the lady .

Remember, you can never count a woman out. This bashing will bring out the terrible sexist memories of how Hillary was treated during this race.

Whether we Obama supporters like it or not there is no a significant experience gap between Palin and Obama, in spite of his wonderful presence, intelligence and educaional pedigree.

Let's focus on the issues, work as hard as we can to elect Obama/Biden and stop making this personal. We will lose if we do this.

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Robi:

To Stillow:

Apparently your missing my point about the Muslim thing. I DON'T THINK HE'S A MUSLIM. But fox news likes to put out stories constantly about things (like the fist jab) and suggest that people think it's because he's a muslim. I'm not for all abortions. But, I believe that in the first trimester, a woman should be able to have an abortion hands down. If a fetus doesn't have a heart beat, it's not alive. I said cut the crap about trivial issues such as the baby scandal. New information has me clarify what I think now about hiding the pregnancy conspiracy.

It's not true. I don't give it any credit anymore. Bristol is 5 months pregnant (CNN confirms) and that couldn't really be possible if she was pregnant with trig back in April. So I am sure now the conspiracy theory is just that.

As for the crap aspect of what I think we shouldn't talk about:

Saying she's one of the worst VP pick cause of her stances on issues (or lack thereof) is not trivial crap like the baby conspiracy. This truly matters for someone who might become president. Criticizing her is not crap.

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thoughtful:

Rus the same today as yesterday 49-46 and Gallup has it a bit more narrow 49-43 to Obama - 6 point lead through polling to 8/31!

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