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US: Health Care (Quinnipiac 6/23-29)


Quinnipiac
6/23-29/09; 3,063 registered voters, 1.8% margin of error
Mode: Live telephone interviews

(source)

National

Would you be willing or unwilling to pay more in taxes for a health care overhaul plan that reduces health care costs and covers those who don't have health insurance?

49% Willing, 45% Unwilling

Would you support or oppose a new tax on employees for the health care benefits that they receive from their employers?

30% Support, 63% Oppose

Do you support or oppose requiring people to have health insurance?

44% Support, 51% Oppose

Do you support or oppose giving people the option of being covered by a government health insurance plan that would compete with private plans?

69% Support, 26% Oppose

 

Comments
Stillow:

Why do I get the feeling the 49 who want higher taxes to pay for it are the same 49 who do not currently pay any income tax?

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Schoeby3131:

I pay plenty of taxes and I'll definitely pay a little more if it's required of me as a citizen. Not ideal, but if I need to, I need to.

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Stillow:

Good....pay mine too then, I pay to much already. And sinc ehte g'ment has proven it cannot run any entitlement within budget or prevent it from going bankrupt, health care will be no different. Please pay mine as well. If you feel its your job to give health care to everyone and let the g'ment run it, that is fine, use your money to do it....keep your hands out of my pocket.

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Schoeby3131:

To each his own. I don't think health insurance should be a for-profit industry, where turning down coverage and claims is encouraged and results in $1 billion severance packages (see United Health Care). I'll gladly pay for your health care, you can pay for my military, roads, and schools. It will be this world where people contribute for the collective good, and we shall call it a society....

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Stillow:

Right, the collective society....I know, the liberal dream. Collective socieites only work when everyone contributes. We liv ein a world where that is not true. With all due resepect, the g'ment cannot work its way out of a wet paper bag and you want them deciding what treatment you can and cannot have....

By the way, please point out where in the Constitution it gives you the right to tell me I must give up huge percentages of my earning sto the collective....You libs want everything for everyone....you just have no way to pay for it. We spend hundreds of billions on educaton and its a joke...you libs want to throw more money at it, that is your knee-jerk response to every problem, well just throw money at it....we've spent trillions o nthe war on pvoerty, hmmm poveryt still exists at about the same rate it did when we started. Becaus ehte g'ment cannot end poverty, redistributing wealth keeps people in poverty, not helps them out of it....
I am not sure at what point in time you libs decided to turn your back on the system tha thas provided the most prosperity for the most people in the hstory of the world, but its sickening. Now you want to take the best health care systemin the world and turn it over to the g'ment....the same g'ment who runs the post office, oh ya, which by the way is broke too....social security, borkke...just magnify medicare by 1,000 and you get socialized medicine.

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Schoeby3131:

The best health care system in the world is a joke in itself. From personal experience (being diabetic) to my fiance paying $1,300 dollars for a six-hour useless ER stay, from my standpoint we have an AWFUL health care system.

Redistributing wealth creates poverty? You bet it does. We've been redistributing wealth upwards for years, not downwards. We had a very strong middle class back in mid 1900's when the top tax rate was anywhere from 71 to 90 percent, but ole Ronald trickle-down Reagan went and messed that up big time. Your points on being a liberal are your beliefs, but I believe conservatives care only about the rich. I believe in wanting an upper class, a middle class, and a lower class. Conservatives want only a mega-upper class and a lower class (to suit the mega-upper class)...they could care less about the middle class. I'm spewing a lot of Thom Hartmann right now but it seems appropriate.

Capitalism is fine. Unchecked capitalism is more dangerous than socialism could ever be.

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Stillow:

@Schoeby3131

You are perfect for portraying ignorance. Conservatives want everyone to succeed. it is liberals who thrive with a large lower class, liberals do not want a middle class at all...a prosperous middle class means people have income and don't need g'ment, liberals only function when they hav ea victim to advocate for. If everyone was wealthy, we would have no liberals to create huge g'ment programs to control our lives. Conservatives want people to make there own choices, not have the g'ment amke them for them....we beleive your wealth is determined by your willingess to take risk, invest and work hard...liberals want to give everything to everyone...wheather you work or not, the g'ment should take care of you. All the time I see people asking the g'ment for more and more....you don't create wealth by dividing it. "every" single entitlement the g'ment gives is bankrupt or going bankrupt. Simply giving things to people is a nice way to get votes but it is not sustainable...we are seeing that now with huge liberal burocracies like CA....for 20 years libs in CA hav ebeen giving away eveyrhting but the sun to get votes...and tiw roked, they turned the state blue, but now the bill is coming due and they don't have the money to pay for there liberal utopia. Conservatives want equal opportunity, not equal outcome. America was built and became great by people acting in self intrest, keeping what they earned, etc. It was not made great by g'ment. The great middle class you speak of didn't become great thru g'ment programs or handouts. Both JFK and Reagan showed us that tax cuts spur growth and increase revenue because more peopel go to work.
I feel your pain on emergency room visists, but fraud, lawsuits, etc lead to higher and higher costs. The system needs reform, not a g'ment take oever. All day long I listen to you libs tell me how great the g'ment is...and it doesn't run any entitlement efficiently, not one single one. The g'ment is full of corrupt pliticians who get themselves richer and richer...and you libs just worship at there feet like they are gods in g'ment. At what point in your life did you decide you are helpless and cannot take care of yourself? And you need some g'ment burocrat to help you and make your decisions for you....Why is it you guys want to sacrifise who you are as an individual to be part of hte collective? People work harder than others, people have more desire than others, some are mor ewilling to take risk than others, those people shoud be rewarded, not punished. Eventually the whole country is goin to look like CA, broke and buried in a huge g'ment burocracy with no way to pay for it. You can't raise taxes high enough to pay for wha tCA is doing. The great liberal expirament is a total failure. All you have done is replace people's ambition with dependency.
No where i nthe constitutuion does it give you hte right to take my money for your health care...or to take my money to bail you ot of your home loan....you people want want want....and don't want to work for it....someone else will always pay for it right?
I wish I knew what happened to you guys, your views are compeltely oppositte to every thing that made this country the most prosperous country in the history of the world.

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IdahoMulato:

The last poll question is very important & decisive: 69% Support, 26% Oppose. I don't care about what people who oppose the government options thinks. People should be free to choose whether they like the government option or keep their private insurance or buy private insurance. For me, any action by governmment that will drive down cost is very important. I was billed $2,500 when I spent just a about 2 hrs in an ER when I came back to the US to continue my education after several years stinct in Ghana, where I had my secondary education. It was awful. I regretted it. I could have gone back to Ghana to see my doctor and including the plane fare, it would have still cost me less. People have the impression that we have the best health care system in the World. However, I beg to differ. Even living in a 3rd World country, I had access to the best of healthcare system. There's a government run program where the citizen can pay a certain amount every year to a government run organization and citizens are guaranteed health care throughout the year. However, some of us who don't like the government system, have our own private doctors and in that case you pay as you go or get a private insurance.

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Stillow:

Your right, I read stories allthe time how wealthy canadians and brits go to Ghana for top notch treatment....you heard it here folks, if you want prime treatment, head to Ghana.....if its so horrible here Idaho, why are you here?

Can you name me anything, just one thing, that g'ment has "lowered" the cost of when it gets invovled in soemthing? Anything at all will do. I wish I could live i nthe fantasy construct some of you libs have created in your minds,but the needs of reality prohibit me form doing so. Maybe next time one of my kids gets sick I will tak them to Ghana. Ask yourself one question while your worshiping at the feet of g'ment and g'ment run healthcare, why did the libs in Congress add a provision and support a rule that EXEMPTS members of congress and the executive from being forced into the new system....they will be keeping there existing system whie everyoen else is forced onto the public system.....two standards, one for g'ment, one for everyone else...and you libs eat it up as though they are doing you some great service.....mmbers of congress I think just sit back and laugh at you people during there ocktail parties.....about what suckers you people are.

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Schoeby3131:

I'm going to try to keep this discussion civil, as you don't seem to care about having an intelligent discussion. You say I can't take care of myself...I take care of myself just fine. I've worked my butt off to get where I am and will continue to work hard to support my current / future family.

You can bash liberalism all you want, but I'm sure we'd both agree that having people function completely as individuals is just anarchy, which of course no one wants. If we all functioned as individuals, no one would build roads and our national defense would be thousands of conflicting militias. So I think we can both agree that America, whether leaning one way or another, is a combination of capitalism and socialism.

You paint liberals with a broad brush of people who don't work hard or don't have desire...believe me that is not the case. That would be like me saying that all conservatives are homophobes who really believe an 800-year-old man got a million species to have sex on a boat eons ago...I won't paint such a brush. But believe me, I've worked my butt off to be where I'm at, just as a lot of people do. It's just my philosophy that it is my duty as a citizen to contribute, in the form of time or money, to those less fortunate than I. So I will continue to do just that. The fact is that health insurance is terrible in this country because of the uninsured...I'd love to see a single health payer system, but it appears I'll have to compromise. Oh well.

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Schoeby3131:

Remember...I/you/we pay to have your house saved if it's on fire. Why I/you/pay shouldn't I pay to have your body fixed if it has cancer? (and even then...houses can be rebuilt, bodies can't).

Pretty hard to have the "pursuit of happiness" when you're sick and can't get help.

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conspiracy:

What Scoeby3131 said.

Stillow, I like you my friend (bit of the liberal John McCain in me there!) but you are painting a caricature here that only far right Republicans believe in.

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Stillow:

You libs are confusing your individual liberlaism with the liberal philospahy that the g'ment promotes. Liberalism gives to thsoe who do not wrok, choose not to work, those who do not produce anything still benefit from the work of others. You let your feeling override logic and reality. Most of us thru all the various forms of taxs are paying 40,50,60 percent of our income to the g'ment so it can redistirbute it to those who they feel are less fortunate. That is to much. Where do you draw the line? Libs will not be happy until every dime one earns goes directly to the g'ment so it can distirbut ei how it feels fit...we used to make fun of the people in the soviet union for being content to wait in bread lines for there alotment of food...that is where we are headed. The g'ment uses things like health care to assume large amounts of control over your life....g'ment is probably the most corrupt entity in existance today...most politicans get rich off the system....preech the typical do as I say not as I do nonsense...and you guys eat it up...they want to pass a public system, yet exempt themselves from being forced onto that system....and again, you guys line up and eat this stuff up. I tell you they laugh at your ignorance...the liberal elite in DC sit and laugh at how easily you are willing to give up your freedoms and control of your life to them...it starts with medicine, move sto employment....eventually they will be telling you where to live, what job you can have, how much you can earn, what foods you can eat, etc, etc...once you open the door to allowing the g'ment to control you, it doesn't stop. And you guys just soak this stuff up. You guys worship the g'ment...the answer to all problems is g'ment....every problem must be delt withwith higher taxes and bigger g'ment....the answer never lies with ht epeople themselves, only in g'ment is the answer always found. You sacrifise your own well being so that g'ment can grow, get stronge rand assume more power....you ugys are perfectly content to watch your freedoms disappear as long as the g'ment gives you bread to eat and a doctor to visit. The g'ment is intentionally destoryign the middle class to create a two class system, the rich and the poor....the libs need the poor to remain in power.

I guess I will never understand why you trust g'ment which is corrupt at all levels over your own decision making ability. Would you allow convicted child molestors to babysit your kids? That is no different than corrupt politicans babysitting your money....your more than happy to allow others who lcaim some kind of intelectural supremecy to make all your decisions. They ge rich off our backs, promise you the scraps from there table and you guys line up to gladly receive them. Liberalism zaps ambition and replaces it with obediency to g'ment. No one is opposed to fair taxation to pay for police, fire, "well run" education....but the solution to every problem is not higher taxes and another g'ment program. You libs have no faith in people, no faith in the judgement of people....you want to control every aspect of my life from light bulbs to how much money I am allowed to keep from what "i" earn.

Liberalism is a mindset i will never understand...i can not imagine forfeiting my liberty in exchange for the scraps of some g'ment burocrat who will continue to give me my weekly bread so long as I keep him in power and let him continue to enrich himself at my expense. All thru history man has eventually rejected g'ment control over ther lives....men earn there freedom, allow a g'ment to erode that freedom, then have to earn it all over again....history repeats itself I guess. While you claim compassion for the less fortunate, its the very social programs you implement that actually keeps people impoverished.
Meanwhile g'ment gets more control over you and you do not even realize it.........becuase your blinded by emotion which overrides your ability to see reality.

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Schoeby3131:

To each his own, my friend, to each his own. You seem to have a lot of anti-government populist rage inside you, which I think everyone shares to some extent. I myself can understand both conservatism and liberalism because I was pretty conservative growing up. But as time has gone on, I've become more liberal (which is the opposite of most people, as people tend to get more conservative as they get older). Either way, we all want good government.

Big or small, good government works either way. Is our government great? Of course not. Most politicians enter the arena with good intentions but get swallowed up in greed the political game, just as many CEOs get swallowed up in greed and care less and less about the working man / woman. Some politicians are corrupt just as some of all people are corrupt...hence why they are called "representatives"...they represent the best and the worst in us as a nation. In an absolute utopian perfect world, government is not needed whatsoever. But we live in a very imperfect world, and sometimes our hand must be forced to do what's right.

I'm not interesting in making poor people rich...not everyone can be. If everyone's a CEO, then there's no janitors to clean the bathrooms. But in general, I just want to see people have enough wages / benefits in their life to raise their family, put kids through college, and stay healthy. And that middle-class status has deteroriated over the years.

Good talk. Please continue to make your points...we need an honest discourse and discussion in this country. But I ask that you keep the discourse civil and realistic. To compare having a child molested to having tax money handled by the government is a terrible analogy to use. It appears you treat government as a complete evil, but even that comparison should embarrass you.

Good night to all.

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Stillow:

Our goals are the same...we all want everyone to have enough to rais ether families, etc. I am not anti g'ment. The founders of this nation created the Constitution to instruct the g'ment on what i cannot do to us. Rather than addressing every problem we have with higher taxes and a g'ment program, it never occurs to libs that the answer might just be to get g'ment out of the way. I think when it comes down to it most of us want the g'ment out of our business, off our back and out of our wallets. People have to be allowed to keep what they earn. To deny them that thru the way of over taxation is disasterous in the long term. it creates an apathy towards hard work and the overall work ethic that built this country.
The g'ment simply was not designed to offer everything to everyone. There is a real danger in allowing g'ment to much control over your life. A huge majority in this country have health coverage and like it...so the answer to getting that coverage to those who do not have it is not to destory the current system and let the g'ment run it....improve the current system, make sensible reforms, etc. I ask liberals all the time and none ever answer my question, name me a suuccessful entitlement program that is not going bankrupt....it doesn't exist because the very nature of an entitlement cannot sustain itself.

I used to live in CA back when Pete wilson was governor and I remember when he left office and the Dems started taking over the state. i remember Feinstein back in 1995 telling us how great CA is going to be when we start helping everyone who needs help. CA in the mid 90's was often called the great liberal expirament. And it worked, the g'ment was giving al kinds of benefits out, steadily raising taxes, giving huge pensiosn to public employees, etc...looked all well and dandy....but the bill always comes due, reagan always said for a time, we can all live beyond our means by the use of credit, but eventually you have to pay the bill. CA is now totally bankrupt, they are issuing IOU's....the states credit rating is injunk status. It doesn't work. Its not even debatable, it simply does not function long term. Everything the g'ment runs and touches, the prices skyrocket and service declines. There is no exception to that rule, the g'ment causes prices to increase and service to decline. Can anyone argue medicare is working well? Now they want to times it by a 1,000 and cover everyone...I mean my God, the taxes needed just to pay for it would be astronomical....and the g'ment never stays within budget on anything. The founders built into our system very few mandtes the g'ment is supposed to do...beyond that, the solutions and prosperity should come from the people and private sector. There is a bill pending right now here in Nevada to ban salt in restaraunts because its bad for us.....what gives the g'ment the right to do that? My daughters school no longer allowes heer to takes soda pop in her lunch because it is bad for her, they actually sent her home with a list of approved beverages that are allowed to be consumed on school grounds....I pay for that school, what gives them the right to tell someone what they can and cannot drink? Step by step they are assuming total control over us...and liberals more often than not get suckered in by hte intention....health care for all sounds real good, but in reality it won't work, there is not enough money in the system to pay for it. G'ment spending and handouts have run up 12 trillion in debt, wheather i be an entitlement or a stupid war, g'ment just spends and spends and spends. We could spend a tiny fraction of what they want to spend and simply give everyone without coverage a voucher to buy coverage, you know why they don't do soemthing like that? Because if they did that g'ment would not have control over you, they want a g'ment burocracy to manage it so they have the power and control. I have a fairly large home here, do you know the city I live in fined me $3,500 for having two fireplaces in my home? again, what gives the g'ment the right to do that? I earn my money. You libs keep supporting bigger and bigger g'ment and for what? The bigger it gets the less efficient it bcomes and the more expensive it gets.

I just constantly see people complaining. Poor people don't have health coverage, but thy have ipods, big screen tv's and a car usually. My problem iwth you libs is that you put all your faith in g'ment....its corrupt from top to bottom, every entitlement is a failure and going bankrupt, they are now talking about closing the post office on saturdays cus it too is bankrupt...and yet anytime we as a society run into a problem, right away, without cosnidering any other option, you libs want higher taxes and a g'ment program to address it. When in reality g'ment is more often than not the actual problem.
Those like me jus twant the g'ment off our backs and out of our wallets. If tomorow the g'ment cut all taxes by 50 percent you would see the biggest economic boom in hte history of the country...allow people to keep what they earn and spend it how they want....people woudl gai npurchasing power, people woudl be put back to work making things...this country owuld be thriving again...but instead you libs thin kthe answer is to take more of our money and give it to the g'ment so they can form a g'ment program which spurs no growth.....

I'm tired...good night sir.

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LordMike:

Stillow said, "Poor people don't have health coverage, but thy have ipods, big screen tv's and a car usually."

Poor people do have coverage, through medicaid... and you must no know any poor people, 'cos big screen TV's? C'mon! That's fantasy! They get a cheap 19" stet at the trift store if they are lucky!

I also really appreciate your belief that sick people should be treated as second class citizens and be forced to give up the american dream and go bankrupt 'cos their kid has brain cancer that isn't their fault?

Sorry you got fined for violating local zoning ordinances. Next time follow the law! Aren't conservatives supposed to be all about law an order?

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LordMike:

Stillow said: "By the way, please point out where in the Constitution it gives you the right to tell me I must give up huge percentages of my earning sto the collective...."

Article I Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and ***general welfare*** of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

I know conservatives do not like building America up... they prefer tearing it down... but, I don't understand how you can be patriotic, when you have no interest in seeing America prosper as a nation?

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LordMike:

Stilow said, "a prosperous middle class means people have income and don't need g'ment"

Really? They don't need roads, and economic infrastructure to create jobs or public schools for their kids to be educated and get better jobs? They don't need parks for their kids to play in or cops to keep them safe or firefighters to protect them? They don't need economic development to stay middle class. Ont he contrary, it's government that props upt eh middle class... With the Republicans having destroyed government over the last 30 years, it's no surprise that they've taken the middle class down with them. The middle class is hurting, and it's not because of "liberals"

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Stillow:

@LordMike

That was the exact response I woudl expect from a brainwashed liberal who blindly follows what the g'ment tells him...I'd like a response from an actual self thinking liberal....not tha talking points replies.

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LordMike:

"That was the exact response I woudl expect from a brainwashed liberal who blindly follows what the g'ment tells him..."

And that's not a talking point? Where's your independent thought, other than., "The government is bad." If you don't like the government, you are free to vote them out!

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Stillow:

You keep thinking the answer to all life's problems are higher taxes and a g'ment program. One day maybe you'll reach the liberal dream of having the g'ment dictate every aspect of your life. G'ment will exempt themselves from the health care plan for al lof us, but force you onto it....hmmmm, you libs just love that. You guys cannot function without having some ruling elite class in DC telling you how to think and act. Quick, chang eyour light bulbs and be proud,your saving the Earth! Liberals are like pets to the g'ment, they just do what they are told. What happened to you guys? Libs used to question authority, question g'ment, you guys used to demand progress be made and justification for g'ment to get invovled in your personal choices....and now, now you guys just line up and wait for g'ment to tell you what to do. You have totally lost the ability to think for yourselves....as a result every rpoblem mus tbe solved by g'ment....only thru bigger g'ment is a solution found. Modern liberalism has taken a once proud ideaology and made it into a totally obediant philospahy....who never questions g'ment....you put all your faith in the system which is run by corrupt politicians....and for whatever reason, you are perfectly happy to get the scraps fro mthere table....your more than happy to let them get rich off your back...to tell you that a national public health plan would be great,yet exempt themselves because they know it will be horrible, but you libs just soak it all up like a sponge! I thought I'd never say this, but I wish the hippy libs woudl come back, cus at least htey questioned g'ment, demand responsibility.....you guys today are brainwashed suckers who have been trained to bey....the g'ment tells you it want smore of your money and you literally jump up and cheer. Someone doesn't ant to work, no problem, lets take care of them anyway! I feel sad for you guys, I cannot imagine living a life void of passion and ambition....void of inspiriation and desire to succeed. Instead you have replaced all that with dependency from g'ment. G'ment should walk beside us, stand beside us, not ride on our backs and keep us opressed. To take away a man's right to keep what he earns does a disservice to that man and the socieity in which he lives. To constantly tell someone that the fruits of there work mus tbe taken from him to provide to others eventually erodes the will towork at all. Like I said, you do a 50 percent across the baord tax cut tomorrow and you owuld see the biggest economic boom in history....instead g'ment takes the money and dishes it out i nthe form of table scraps so people become content with just getting by.
I don't know what happened to you guys....its beyond me why you would allow corrupt politicans to keep taking your money, come up with programs they promise are great, yet exempt themselves from being restricted to those same progrms, you treat g'ment like a king........you ugys have lost the american spirit......perfectly happy to live on your knees at worship the g'ment as long as it provides you the bare bones needs of life.

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IdahoMulato:

Stillow

I have to be here becuase I'm a citizen of the great nation on earth United States. You keep spewing the right wing talking points over and over again and yet you lambash others for doing same or even less.
LordMike had quoted a very interesting statement from our own constitution to buttress his point - "Article I Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and ***general welfare*** of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States." What you need to do is to come out with another quote to support your point(s) instead of dwelling on the same old tired talking points and diatribe that won't win any sophiscated mind.

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Stillow:

Idaho, that quote supports my point of view, not your liberal points of view. So I didn't think it neede dto be addressed. But if I must.

"but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States"

Another word for uniform is eual. Liberals do not support a unfirom structure of taxes and dtuies collections. You tax the successful at a much more punitive rate...in fact half this country pays no income tax at all...and a step further, my income tax is physically redistirbuted to some one else thru the earned incoem tax credit. The constitution calls for a uniform system of taxation...meaning equality in the tax system. So it does not grant you the right to take more from me, upwards of 60 percent of my total income...and only take 10 from someone else. I work my tail off for what I have and liberals punish me for that....that quote you claim supports your position is totally in contradiction to your liberal philosopahy. Half this country doesn't mind raising taxes because they do not pay them anyway. There is nothing uniform or equal about our tax system....And promoting the general welfare does not mean providing everything to everyone by way of g'ment entitlement. The world owes no man a living, it only owes every man the opportunity to make a living. Your ambitiion, willingess to take risk, work hard, all help to determine your level of wealth. I regularly work 60 hour work weeks, so if I earn a little more money than the guy who only wants to work 30, then by God if I earn more money than he does, tha tis his problem, not mine. Its not my job to pay for your needs...no where in the constitituion does it give you the right to put punitive levels of taxation on my work and success to pay for your lack of work and success. The founders knew you cannot gaurantee financial equality, because some are always willing to work harder and take the necessary steps to achiving wealth and others are not. some are simply content to live with less means....

So your quote backfires on you....since the financial burden in this country is not uniform, not is it equal...and there are reasons why I may earn more money than you. When I leave my house at 4:30AM there is not a lot of people out....so don't sit and tell me its my duty to pay more, I earn what I have...and you have no right to punish me for that. These are not talking points, these are my beliefs...I speak from frustration as I see people around me all the time who are lazy and happy to live off of my dime. That is not what America is all about. America is about equal opportunity, not equal oucome. i have zero sympathy for an able bodied adult who chooses not to work and then asks for handouts...as far as I am concerned he can go without. i was raised and taught you pull your own weight, nothing in life is free, if you want soemthing, then you work for it. I will give my fellow citizens a hand up when they fall on hard times, I will not give them a hand out. You have no right to my earnings at the level you are taking them. So before you start quoting ammendments, read them first. If you want people to have more money, then have the g'ment stop taking half of it....there are literly dozens and dozens of different taxes the people pay...and you tell me you want more so that g'ment can create another burocracy which can go bankrupt requiring more money from me. You have created an unsustainable system....again, you have the example right in front of your face in CA....that is the end result of liberalism....absolute financial collapse...CA is now out ther begging the chinese for money....that is liberalism, it does not work....you can't even debate it, you libs ignore it, its right in front of your noses and you still want the country to go that direction. The level of ignorance is frightening that you just don't get it. Hell the damn state is issuing iou's......for cryn out loud open your eyes man. Let the people do what they do best, produce, invent, create....let people keep what they earn so they can can spend as they see fit. But no, like I aid, you worship at the feet of g'ment and simply are content to wait for your daily bread and wait to visit your g'ment appointed doctor. Again, where is your spirit at, have you become so void of ambition...has g'ment dependency truly sucked out completely what it means to be an american? Don't you have that desire to work, to create soemthing, to make soemthing, to pay your own way? Its a real shame.

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MikeS:

I sure am tired of Congress, seems every time I turn around, they are doing something either that I can't afford or losing a bit more of my personal liberty.

Isn't this country bankrupt already? Doesn't matter if they took every penny from every person, we would still have to borrow from China to pay for it.

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INDEPENDENT2THECORE:

STILLOW: I applaud you. Liberals have taken this country and made a mess of it and they refuse to see what's happening. California IS the PRIME EXAMPLE of what happens when you SPEND SPEND SPEND without worrying how to pay for it.

Now it's bankrupt and they still can't understand what happened. Must be that fabulous PUBLIC SCHOOL EDUCATION! They never learned to think for themselves.

I like you, am still waiting for one of them to tell us which government entity or program is actually in the black. Please, we are waiting with bated breath to know what the Government does well in this day and age.

Hurricane Katrina? Medicare? Social Security? The Post Office? California? Illinois? The Veterans' Administration? The FDA? Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac? Oh wait, those last 2 are quasi government agencies. What the hell is a quasi government agency anyway? I won't hold my breath waiting for an answer. I wouldn't want to make any liberal happy that way!

Obama is the new Pied Piper. He came along and opened his mouth and all the little sheeple liberals followed him. And they will follow him all the way over the cliff!

Sounds just like another so called great orator who came along at a time when the country was floundering in a mess very similar to this country's mess. When the people just wanted someone to take care of the mess and please just someone take care of this and don't bother us.

And this wonderful orator found someone to blame for the country's troubles. After all, someone had to be blamed.

Just like now. The rich are to blame. The Republicans are to blame. It's all their fault. They must pay for their sins.

And this wonderful orator became the leader of this country and he controlled every aspect of their lives. Only he knew what was good for the people of this country. Only he could save them. And the sheeple of this country blindly followed this leader over the edge of the abyss.

Just like here in our country right now.
Obama and this other leader have so much in common.

I wonder. Would Hitler be flattered to be emulated by Obama? What a conundrum!

And why does the Federal Government need 32 czars? What the hell are these people doing? Didn't Russia lead a revolution to overturn their czar? And they only had one!

We have 32!! 32 czars!! What the hell is happening to this country?

As you can tell from my name, I will never submit to this country becoming like 1984. If you haven't read it, shame on you! And if you don't know what I'm talking about, then double shame on you!

People spend all their time talking about Michael Jackson's death while this country sinks deeper and deeper into the abyss.

More than 60% of people polled could not even name the 3 branches of government! How pathetic. They don't even have an idea of what a republic is.

As in the pledge,"and to the republic, for which it stands".

Here is my new pledge of allegiance. Since America is fast becoming a socialist country, all you liberals need to learn this new pledge. Because the old one is so out of date!

THE NEW PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the Socialist States of Amerika.
And to the redistribution of wealth, for which it now stands;

One nation, enslaved for countless generations by debt from inequitable taxation, illegal immigration, cap and trade, exorbitant unemployment and unnecessary government bailouts; with massive welfare and rationed health care for all.


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To Lord Mike about "general welfare". Please don't distort what that means. It does not mean healthcare, or free housing or even food stamps. What the framers intentions were a general frameword for equal opportunity, without gov't intervention.I am a tax accountant and I can tell you per irs.gov. The poor don't pay any federal income taxes. The only tax is Social security which is supposed to be for our "retirement", but in the end this tax will pay support to indidviduals that are drunks (alcohol disease). And being a conservative, I believe strongly in supporting for the needy, but that is for me to decide not the oppresive gov't in place right now. Its strange though Joe Biden gave about $3000 in three years on million dollar incomes. I give more in two months & i make less than $100k....I guess you liberals are good at spending other peoples hard earned money.

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To Schoeby3131:
While I appreciate having to deal with a disease as yours, gov't healthcare does not work. In Canada, the average wait time in an er situation is 14 hrs. and in some hospitals in Ontario it is upward of 24 hrs. 1 out of 3 canadians cannot find a primary care giver (why would a doctor work for peanuts after putting all the years in college). Another story is having to wait for an MRI up to 14 months.Innovation and profit create more for all not just a few. Look at specific diseases (cancer) we have the highest cure rate by far. We have the best healthcare & the reason it is screwed up is because gov't regulates it. Don't be fooled if gov't is in control, it will be rationed. And the only ones who will have good care are the ones who can afford to pay for an extra plan.

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vaultster:


I recieved this in an email written by Charlie Reese.


EVERY CITIZEN NEEDS TO READ THIS AND THINK ABOUT WHAT THIS JOURNALIST HAS WRITTEN IN THIS MESSAGE. READ IT AND THEN REALLY THINK ABOUT OUR CURRENT POLITICAL DEBACLE.
Charley Reese has been a journalist for 49 years


Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them.

Have you ever wondered, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, WHY do we have deficits?
Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes?
You and I don't propose a federal budget. The President does.
You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does.
You and I don't write the tax code, Congress does.
You and I don't set fiscal policy, Congress does.
You and I don't control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does.

One hundred Senators, 435 Congressmen, one President, and nine Supreme Court justices -- 545 human beings out of the 300 million are directly, legally, morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.

I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered, but private, central bank.
I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman, or a President to do one cotton-picking thing. I don't care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine how he votes.

Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party. What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits. The president can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it.

The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes.
Who is the speaker of the House? Nancy Pelosi. She is the leader of the majority party. She and fellow House members, not the President, can approve any budget they want. If the President vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree to.

It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million can not replace 545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts -- of incompetence and irresponsibility. I can't think of a single domestic problem that is not traceable directly to those 545 people. When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist.

If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair.
If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red ..
If the Army & Marines are in IRAQ, it's because they want them in IRAQ .
If they do not receive Social Security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it's because they want it that way.
There are no insoluble government problems.
Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power..
Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like "the economy," "inflation," or "politics" that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do.
Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible.
They, and they alone, have the power.
They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses.
Provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees.

We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!

Charlie Reese is a former columnist of the Orlando Sentinel Newspaper.
What you do with this article now that you have read it is up to you, though you have several choices:
1. You can send this to everyone in your address book and hope "they" do something about it.
2. You can agree to "vote against" everyone that is currently in office, knowing that the process will take several years.
3. You can decide to "run for office" yourself and agree to do the job properly.
4. Lastly, you can sit back and do nothing or re-elect the current bunch.
Institute TERM LIMITS!!!

The Republicans and the Dems simply want us to hate each other.....divide and conquer if we elect people who follow the constitution we will all be better off, we can then have real change that will benifit the poorest as well as the middle class, and the rich will not be overburdened.

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mr. independence:

All of you liberals who think that big government is the solution and guaranteed by the Constitution would fail in History because the Founding Fathers created the Bill of Rights and Declaration of Independence to escape the heavy taxation being imposed on them by the British Monarchy. A collective society is just a nice way of describing socialism. And if that form of government works so well why have so many Cubans risked their lives in tiny boats to come to this country? You might say that Cuba is run by a dictatorship but what do we have now with the current makeup of our Legislative and Executive Branch of government. We don't have a single dictatorship we have multiple dictators all hell bent on spending money we don't have and telling us what we can and cannot do. Ayn Rand was a Russian who came to this country because she believes in a pure capitalistic society and Russia was sinking in Socialism. She wrote a fictional novel titled "Atlas Shrugged". Unfortunately that novel is becoming reality for us and it appears that a majority of Americans are embracing it. And that is the destruction of the free enterprise system. The problem with our government is they can talk the talk but they cannot walk the walk. As an example I offer to you the Department of Energy. This behemoth Department was created under the illustrious Jimmy Carter. And what do you think was the sole purpose of this Department? It was created to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. With a multi billion dollar annual budget they are doing a fine job aren't they?
And why should we stop with California when we talk about ill run places in this country? What about Michigan? Michigan has been under Democrat leadership for as long as I can remember and they aren't doing too well economically. Then there are the numerous cities around this fine land such as Cleveland, Detroit, Cincinnati, Miami, just to name a few all heavily in debt and they all have one thing in common. They all have Democratic Mayors. Some have never had any other party as their leaders.
What really strikes me as totally illogical is how you liberals have bashed Bush for what he has did as President and yet the person you see as your saviour has managed to spend more of our money than Bush did in eight years.And as far as the war in Iraq is concerned that was not exactly a partisan decision. For those of you who suffer from short attention span disorder there were many Dems who agreed that Iraq had WMDs and Hussein needed to be stopped. When none were found they quickly blamed it all on Bush and you swallowed their story and jumped on the anti Bush anti Iraq war bandwagon.
On a final note all I can say to you libs is come back in a few years and let me know how you like living a country like Stalin's Russia or Hitler's Germany or Castro's Cuba.

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Bonnie:

Like anything else with this "new change", sometimes your opinion is heard and sometimes it is not. We are already experiencing block outs for no reason, and are being censored. For everyone that wants to lose their voice, their vote and their right to speak out...keep on worshiping your false messiah!! For those that don't...keep on trying to make your voice heard.
I am not for the 100% government control. They work for us and it is time we call them in!! Government is growing to much, too fast.

Does the government work for you or are you going to work for the government??

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Allen:

Interesting how the discussion about health care deteriorated into a call for anarchy and complete over through of the government. Perhaps valid points but that wasn’t the topic under discussion. And we wonder why congress never gets anything done? Maybe their attention span and ability to stay focused on the issue is similar to our own?

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Captain America:

Those in support of obama care, or anything else obama, MOVE TO CUBA....PLEASE!

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Numbers:

When faced with the choice of paying high health care costs for the emergency room free clinic or higher taxes... it ain't much of a choice for those who can afford to actually pay their medical bills.

I don't earn enough to pay taxes and I don't pay my medical bills anyway because I can't.

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Mr. Mike:

How is it legal for one class of persons to vote a tax hike for the other? I already pay more in taxes than my wife makes; roughly 45% of my pay check. Only those who have income taxes should be able to vote on who gets an increase.

On a similar note, the private and government sectors cannot compete. Government creates the rules - how does anyone figure this would be fair? And where does the Federal government get the false idea that it has the right to create a healthcare program? READ the Constitution - The Federal Government has a very limited role, one its best to stick to before states start leaving the union.

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Reality Check:

Hey Stillow, perhaps you should turn off Fox News and relax a little. Liberal is not a dirty word no matter how hard you "neo-cons" try and villify it...

From WIKI:
"Liberalism is a broad class of political philosophies that considers individual liberty and equality to be the most important political goals.
Liberalism emphasizes individual rights and equality of opportunity."

Conservative:
"Conservatism is a political and social term from the Latin verb conservare meaning to save or preserve. As the name suggests it usually indicates support for tradition and traditional values though the meaning has changed in different countries and time periods."

Or in other words Consevatisim supports a lack of change which is what the American people voted for last November


Government:
"A government is the body within an organization that has the authority to make and enforce rules, laws and regulations, control and direct the actions or behavior of the individuals within the organization and deal with everyday administrative issues."

The United States, according to a strict textbook definition, is a REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY. In a representative democracy, we elect officials to pass and deliberate on legislation on our behalf. This should be contrasted to a DIRECT DEMOCRACY where people vote for every proposition and laws that affects them.

JFK's words:
"What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal.""

And to "Captain America" (pssh) welcome to a Representitive Democracy, you lost, you live with it or YOU leave.

civics 101 over, have a nice day.


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I'm Conservative:

I couldn't resist any longer. The postings above are all talking emotional feelings not Constitutional restrictions. READ the Preamble to the Constitution, the Constitution and ALL the Amendments to the Constitution and tell me where it says the Government is supposed to use money from the Citizens to bail out private business. After you have found that in the Constitution tell me where it says the Government is supposed to take care of the health care needs of the Citizens. Someone, I believe it was, Schoeby3131, said that Ronald Reagan destroyed the middle class. Well, the president has only limited powers allowed by the Constitution, he didn't do it alone. Congress approved (voted) to reduce taxes and it was a Democrat controlled Congress. As a matter of FACT Democrats had controll of Congress for over 40 years, all the way thru Reagan and George H Bush years. The States are not supposed to be controlled by the Government but it seems when the Government does anything they set restrictions that if a State doesn't do something specific then they get no federal money. Hmmm, sounds socialistic already.

Schoeby3131, you also mentioned that back in the 40's and 50's the middle class was strong and you were very correct. It takes years to build a strong economy/class and it took years for the Democrat controlled Congress to destroy the middle class. The widening gap of the upper/middle/lower classes of citizens started when the "New Deal" and "Wellfare" got rolling (fact - Both are Democrat programs). You pay people not to work and they won't. You pay for people to go to the doctor and they will go for the slightest sniffle. I'm waiting tho for you to show me where in the Constitution of the United States of America that says the Government has the authority to impose Health Care on all citizenry.

Back in the 40's and 50's people helped people, churches did too. Now today, people don't help anymore and I ask why? Could it be because they don't want to get involved because they think the Government is supposed to do it. W R O N G ! ! ! ! !

READ the Constitution and please get back to me.

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Reality Check:

Conservative, are you not aware of the constitutionally legal amendment to the constitution that Lord Mike provided above?

Article I Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and ***general welfare*** of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

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tTom:

This Is Just another way to raise our taxes. Did Obama say he wasn't going to raise the taxes on people making under 200,000 a year.

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vaultster:

I used to be a republican now I see that was only a label for a group seeking power without any concern for the curruption it created along the way. I cannot vote for any of the Democrats for basicly the same reason. I read the comments all of you post and I see you are by and large intelligent and well meaning but i am left to wonder why it is you can't see you all are trapped by your belief that one of the two parties are better and what they will do givin the chance will be better then what the other will do. It is all false they cannot relate to the real world as incumbants they no longer talk to people who actually have to struggle to make ends meet. They will do no better for us only themselves. Why is it the salary of the rank and file house and senate members is $174,000 and Obama made over 2.5 million dollars last year? And he is not alone look at both sides of the isle and there are many other examples. The Executive branch , the Legisative branch and the Judicial branch no longer keep each other in check as intended because the people who serve only serve themselves.

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Greg S:

The topic is HEALTHCARE. It's improtant to understand a little Insurance-eese. The Currrent process goes like this, implementation of Health care is done by Healthcare providers, Doctors, Nurses, Hospitals and so on. They get paid (because everyone needs to get paid for their job) by submitting claims. Claims primarily go to INSURANCE COMPANIES. Insurance companies pay the claims from one of two sources. Their own bank of colleted premiums or Medicare the governments bank of collected premiums via payroll dedutions.
It is worth mentioning that Insurance companies are in the business of collecting Premiums and NOT paying claims. It's a concept called Risk Adversion.They want to make money; so the less they pay in claims, the more money is left for them. Like any other Business.
The Insurance industry is the second most powerful entity in this country as far as money is concerned. Take a look at the financial meltdown. There was only one insurance company involved. The rest were not. So this process of avoiding adverse risk is paying off for them.

There are some Health care insurance companies out there that are good. Primarily because the States where they have filed and received approval to sell their product provides services to the people who pay the premium. They can't say we will take you but not you or put pre-existing clauses on individuals. This is called Community Underwriting, where they have to accept and cover you based on what the policy says it will cover.
One way to make insurance more affordable is to provide a set of standards that all insurance companies will follow in all States.
Right now each state deceides what can be sold and what the plan must offer, That's it; not how much it will cost the consumer.

We could reduce the barriers and let competition drive out the companies that offer inferior policies for the same high prices.
The current system needs to have some checks and balances for HEALTH COVEWRAGE ONLY. The only way to do that is to make all HEALTH CARE POLICIES AND THEIR MONEY NOT FOR PROFIT. That is, the money collected in premiums can not be used to fund other companies or pay excessive salaries. The money stayes in a pool and is used only for Health care coverage and to pay the salaries of the necessary people to run the claims, anti fraud, overhead, physical plant, utilities and a prudent reserve for continuation.
Take a look at the annual reports filed by the largest insurance company in your state, take a look at how much they rake in and how little they pay out.
One thing is certain. Greed on both sides of the Healthcare system increase costs while reducing the scope and quality of care. I have had to deal with Insuance Company "Care Managers" basically the opposite of a bill collecter and just as viscious.

The Role of government is to prevent excess greed from harming the public be it the Private Sector or the Government themselves by providing agreed upon and adaptive controls "regulation"

Under our current plan the burden has been shifted to the Private sector to provide coverage in the form of policies. Government has stayed out of it aside from Medicare which has it's share of fraud. Anytime a giant pile of money is sitting in one place; you can bet that someone is out there trying to figure out how to get theirs hand on it. The current system allows for the insurance company to protect itself. That requires oversight and regulation because they are VERY protective of the money they receive.
There is enough money in the current private system to cover everyone if the companies are willing to use the money for providing healthcare coverage.
So unless we all want Medicare and I mean our elected officials as well (whats good for the people is good for them) Then we must take a look at limiting the excessive greed from this sector of the Insurance Industry. It should not cost as much as a mortgage to have health insurance.

By the way, We can make a start right now. We can go back to where the Pill companies sold their products to doctors instead of passing on the cost to the consumer and Insurance industry to pay for their TV, Radio and Print Advertising.

Concerned

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pattieb:

We were PROMISED that there would be no new taxes for 95% of us, why then are we having this discussion? And, why are those that support Obama now willing to pay those taxes? If Obama was an honorable man, a man of his word this topic would be moot. If you voted for Obama, you pay, if you didn't you don't, simple.

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vaultster:

If there is honest healthcare reform we can lower the cost overall and provide for more people with better service, one of the first steps that need to be taken is tort reform, if the courts do not allow frivolous lawsuits and limit the exposure of the doctors, the useless redundant testing for liability protection will be reduced or eliminated. But that is a tough nut because by and large the house and senate is made up by lawyers who of course are against reducing there earning potential. We sue the doctors for helping us but we still eat the processed food from McDonalds, and the others that give us the health problems, we are sheeple and unless we vote we will get what we don't want

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stoneman:

I have been reading posts for over an hour and never got to the bottom of the page, I just couldn't resist the need to post my opinions.

Everyone is bickering over titles, liberal this conservative that, can't we be both? It seems as though if you are a liberal you CAN'T believe anything conservative and if you are conservative, you CAN'T believe in anything liberal. Well, I believe in both sets of values as long as they do not conflict with the US constitution.

I believe in helping people out, not giving hand outs. When you give someone everything they ask for, what is the incentive to work hard to attain the things they need and want? On the other side of the coin, I don't think you can have only a certain group of individuals that have been exposed to opportunity and others have no means to succeed. I DO believe, when we provide basic needs to and don't allow certain groups to fail, then have created a wellfare state that someone has to pay for and this is not right. Everyone should be exposed to failure, that is what makes us stronger in the long run.

I think California NEEDS to fail, we can not bail them out, they created this mess and have done nothing to curb their spending and are now looking to either raise taxes(this has been voted down by the people of California, cut social services or look for a handout from the Government(the tax payers). I also think, some of our financial institutions and big businesses should have been allowed to fail. We don't strive for greatness unless we are dealt with adversity, GM and Chrysler only had to hold their hand out to be rescued. We are turning into a society of the entitled and this needs to stop.

It is not a right as a US citizen to have healthcare, a new house and a big gas guzzling auto in the garage along with free healthcare and welfare. Our constitution states that we have certain "inalienable rights" Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We should ALL be afforded the opportunity of our inalienable rights and no person should be oppressed in their ambitions of these rights. Nor shall anyone's inalienable rights be sacrificed for the sake of someone else's ambitions to achieve those things.

This is why I believe in government but only to maintain order, peace and the things that the constitution guarantees. For the greater good of all, not the greater good of an idealogy and set of political passions.

The core problem I see in politics is the idealogy of political service in modern times as apposed to what our founding fathers wanted. George Washington was not a member of any political party and hoped that they would not be formed, he warned of partizenship and its' downfalls.

I believe in Government, only to serve the people and not enslave the people. Government by the people and for the people not, by the people and in spite of the people.

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ONTIME:

Unless the President, the exempted and the Congress all agree to drop their own tax paid health coverage and join the one they intend to sell the public then there is no need to legislate this bill. If they don't want then why would the public?

If your going to sell snake oil to the folks, then you had best drink your own concoction in front of them.

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pato:

What everyone is now forgetting is that if this passes, your future health coverage is going to be determined by the same caliper of person that runs your local Post Office or the IRS. Those with any sort of pre-existing condition are the ones that should be most concerned. Let's say you are diabetic, there will be no "compassion" shown you once your "quality of life" is deemed to be failing. You will be thought of as taxing the already overburdened system and told that you no longer qualify for certain medications and you'll just have to live with it - and basically be told to go die. In esence the government will be determining who will get care and who will not. This to me is very frightening.
If you think trying to get pre-authorizations now for things is bad under private health care, wait until you have to call the government run offices and try to get an answer!!
There are other alternatives to a nationalized health care system such as malpractice Torte reform -but that will never pass since the lawyers are in the pockets of politicians. Also once the government steps in as a "competitor" it will drive the health care companies out of business and there will be no competition. Who can compete with a government run program-especially when they are making all the "rules" which we all know will be aimed at acquiring as much control over the system as possible. Also think of the thousands of jobs that are going to be lost in the private sector when the insurance companies go out of business?
The one comment in this debate is perfect -it should be mandated that every one in Congress and the President be forced to take this new program. Call your Senators and tell them that and see what their reaction is -or better yet tell them we as citizens want the exact program that they now enjoy at the same cost that they pay.
Wake up America, Obama and the Dems are creating non existant "crisis" to steal our freedoms!!

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It took eight years for Bush and Cheney to bring our economy to the brink of ruin. It will take Obama and Biden more than eight months to bring it back to Clinton levels.

The Republicans stopped health care reform in the 90's and promised their own health care plan. They fooled us. Again they are trying to stop health care for all citizens. Don't be fooled again.

Why should insurance companies be in the middle of patients and their physicians? The very wealthy insurance companies are raking in millions of tax payer dollars for health care insurance which does nothing for actual patient care.

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stoneman:

franrose,

I am sorry to have to correct you but, it was Clinton that set the wheels in motion to make sure everyone had the chance to own a home, even when they could't afford it, by relaxing the purchasing standards. It was also Bush's fault because they allowed short selling legislation to expire and certain questionably traded funds where used as financial Russian Roulette. Reagan had a hand in this that escalated with financial deregulation and Bush SR, Clinton nor Jr tried to correct those problems. Obama is trying to spend money like he just won the lottery and is trying to fix too much too soon and is bankrupting us further. We have spent more money in the last 6 months than we have in the 30 years prior combined. Unemployment has gone well past the 8% mark the Obama administration said was a stopping point and it hasn't even slowed. Biden and and Obama can't agree on anything and Bush and Cheney agreed together on too much that was the wrong direction. Biden even admitted they didn't properly understand the complexity and more drastic than perceived weakened condition of the economy. Any people are trusting this bunch to look ahead in the future to 2020 and figure out how to pay for healthcare. They can't even see past yesterday. Maybe I am just doom and gloom but, until we get past all the partizenship and admit Americans can make bad decisions and fail, we doomed to keep heading down the same path. It is like a drug addict, you must first admit you have a problem before you can fix it. We just keep telling ourselves we are the US of A, we don't make mistakes.

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benny:

When is someone going to answer why the congress will be on a different health care system. They are shoving this down our throats, why don't they want to be on it.

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benny:

As soon as Obama took tort reform off the table the health care system was destine for failure.

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Jenni:

Every government employee including The President and Members of Congress should be required to use the government backed "new" health insurance plan. You can bet that there would be very few things that won't be covered. If this was already mentioned, I apologize. I didn't read all of the responses.

Jenni

Day 7 and still no Nancy!! :)

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I think the larger issue is that for healthcare to become affordable, powerful special interests will have to reduce their profits, and they don't want to do that. I am talking about big pharma, the insurance companies, malpractice attorneys, for example. All these entities exist for the purpose of maximizing their profits - that is more important to them than taking care of our health. This is a root cause of the skyrocketing costs of health-care in our country, and a fundamental flaw in the model of for-profit health insurance companies. They exert their influence over our government to facilitate the transfer of as much money as possible from our pockets to theirs...

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mr. independence:

There are many factors that have contributed to the increasing costs of health care today. Modern technology, medicare-medicaid, lawsuits, and the number of people who flood our emergency rooms with no insurance and the hospital ends up eating the cost or passes it on to those who have insurance. Until we address tort reform, medicare-medicaid abuse and allow drug companies to advertise all of their expensive drugs we will never lower health care and the last thing we need is a single payer plan (the government) managing our health care needs. I agree that there needs to be a uniform law governing the insurance companies and their standards. All of the special interest groups who have a stake in this will make sure that nothing is reformed and if we go to a public health care program we will all be paying a lot more in taxes, not just those making over $200,000. Obama is getting is costly spending programs in place before he comes out and says, "Hey guess what we spent too much money we will need more of you to help contribute." All of the Americans who worship Obama are the same kind of people who worship all of the celebrities out there in People magazine and all of that trash news media. He created a celebrity image of himself because a vast majority of lower and middle class Americans are obsessed with celebrities. If they weren't we would not have all of those magazines at the checkout counter of every major retailer and we would not have 24/7 coverage of Michael Jackson's death. Obama knew he lacked the experience and credentials to run on that alone so he created this image as a celebrity and of course he had the support of the liberal media as well. Sorry for straying off the subject.

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I don't see how you can label people as liberals and/or conservatives. There is just no way that everyone in the USA fit into only two categories. Republicans disagree with Republicans and Democrats disagree with Democrats. This labeling and name calling gets us NOWHERE. Would you talk about specific issues Please.

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WAKEUP:

A friend works as a social worker to help struggling families get on their feet. She took a personal pole of the families as to which 'right' they would give up. The majority of the families said as long as they had healthcare and the basic necessities of life covered they would give up the right to vote. They thought their right to vote was a waste because the government doesn't listen to the people anyway.
There needs to be alot of public education about how this country was started and why the Bill of Rights/Constitution is the way it is.
People have forgotten what our country stands for. More attention/education needs to be given to the history of the United States of America and how/why the government is to run/be/its purpose. People always blame the government for how skrewed up our country is. I don't mean to open up a kettle of worms...but our government is a reflection of America. It used to be a life lived well is better than a life lived freeloading off of hard working people. Americans forget that WE are the government. It's the Americans who don't get involved and just complain...it's the Americans who don't/haven't voted who GIVE our country away. It's Americans who are not keeping watch of the government/writing their officials/voting/educating oneself about the issues. America needs to grow up and count the cost of being an American. Our government is like a garden, it needs to be 'tended' to, you can't let it go, or weeds will sprout.

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snake0311:

Lord Mike, The Constitution says "...Provide for the Common defense and promote the general welfare....."
There is a vast difference between "Provide" and "Promote". To provide for something is to supply it. To promote something is to make people aware of it. Are you going to be obtuse enough that I must explain where this applies or will you take responsibility for your words?

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Steve:

To sound cliche, A government big enough to give you everything you need is big enough to take it all away.

Looking back through history, every country in the world that had/has a socialistic style of government has failed or is failing. Russia, Cuba, Eastern Bloc countries.

If, and this is documented, 40-50,000 people out of the millions that live in New York city pay all the taxes that the city takes in, I wonder just how many people out of the millions that live here actually pay the taxes that the US Government takes in.

Part of the reason health care is so high is because of the medical coverage given to illegal aliens. I believe it was Arizona that determined they paid over 800 million in one year for coverage for illegal aliens. And that is just Arizona.

The ability to ensure everyone has everything they need to live a comfortable life is not possible because of human nature. Those that can take advantage of a system that provides for everyone will, and those that support the system will be burdened ever more.

Having a bleeding heart is not necessarily a bad thing but it must be tempered with strong doses of reality.

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Zebra:

Stillow says:
Idaho, that quote supports my point of view, not your liberal points of view. So I didn't think it needed to be addressed. But if I must.

"but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States"

Another word for uniform is eual. Liberals do not support a unfirom structure of taxes and dtuies collections. You tax the successful at a much more punitive rate...in fact half this country pays no income tax at all...and a step further, my income tax is physically redistirbuted to some one else thru the earned incoem tax credit. The constitution calls for a uniform system of taxation...meaning equality in the tax system. So it does not grant you the right to take more from me, upwards of 60 percent of my total income...and only take 10 from someone else.

If you are having 60% of your money taken in taxes you need to hire a new accountant. The top tax rate in the USA is 40%.
Also what about the "Bristol Palins" of the country; you want to charge some kid making 250$ per week 60% or even 40% of their check in taxes? That is just unrealistic. people WILL BE STARVING AND COMMITTING CRIME ALL OVER THE PLACE. you WANT TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR CHILDREN DYING? you ARE SICK.

snake0311 says:
Lord Mike, The Constitution says "...Provide for the Common defense and promote the general welfare....."
There is a vast difference between "Provide" and "Promote". To provide for something is to supply it. To promote something is to make people aware of it. Are you going to be obtuse enough that I must explain where this applies or will you take responsibility for your words?

The constitution says to "...Provide for the Common defense ...."
The National Public Health Infra-structure is for the common defense!

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JB:

Steve says, "Looking back through history, every country in the world that had/has a socialistic style of government has failed or is failing. Russia, Cuba, Eastern Bloc countries."

Really, you think China is failing? Seems they are pretty much kicking out butts lately. More to the point however plenty of capitalistic countries have failed throughout history alongside the socialist ones.

Just because a system does well for a while doesn't mean it will last forever. The Roman Empire fell and someday out great nation may as well.

Further to the point, plenty of capitalist countries have opted for socialist medical systems that FAR exceed the care provided in the US.

Stop living in dream land that we have the "best medical care", becaues we DO NOT. We pay more and get LESS by nearly every metric.

From the WHO's 2000 survey (although there have been dozens of similar surveys by other orginazations if you prefer):

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
.
.
.


There we are between Costa Rica and Solvenia... Whoo hoo go USA!


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JB:

Hmmm... this bit got cut off....

Fundamentally our healthcare system was broken when it became an employment benefit.

For those that don't know the history, employment benefits largely came into being during WWII to get around wage controls, as a way to attract employees. Yes, evil wage controls were the culprit, however after wage controls ended, employees had come to expect non-wage benefits as part of employment.

Flash forward to today. Do you take into account which health plans an employer offers when you go looking for a job? Would you turn down an job because you didn't like their health plan options? Would you CHANGE jobs because your employer changed plans out from underneath you while you were employed with them?

The answer to all the questions for most people is no. We don't say no to these questions because generally we are more concerned about who we work for and how much we get paid than details like health plans. This is however the problem.

There is no real free market consumer choice under the current system. You choose your employer. Your employer chooses a health insurer. The Health Insurer chooses a (group of) doctors/hosptials. If you don't like the service you get from your (group) of hospitals and doctors, can you easily change insurance companies? ...or jobs?

BTW, Saying you can chose between an employer subsidized plan and a private plan isn't truly a balanced choice. Few if any companies GIVE you the money they save if you chose not to subscribe to their group plan. However, wouldn't you rather have that money, and not just the money they directly spend on your health plan, but on the HR staff to manage it in-house, in YOUR pocked to choose how YOU wanted to spend it? Isn't that truly the free-market capitalist way?

Until we can freely choose between health plans there is no free-market functioning to reduce costs. This is why the number one priority OUGHT TO BE eliminating employer subsidized health insurance altogether and replace it with a universal voucher system. In short a tax voucher which MUST be spent on healthcare, either applied towards any private plan or applied towards a public plan.

Imagine a system where everyone were covered by the public plan by default (the poor, crappy, limited coverage plan if think it will be), however you could apply 100% of your health care voucher to any private insurance plan you liked provided it provided equal or better coverage then the public plan. You could pay even MORE if you wanted to, your voucher plus out of pocket if you really want the gold plated plan.

Unfortunately no one is publicly promoting a universal voucher system. Until someone takes the bold step of divorcing health insurance from employee benefits, which mind you necessitates passing a law to prevent exclusion based on pre-existing conditions, a public plan option is a good first step.

I for one would sign up for the public plan solely so I could have health coverage that would follow me from job to job.

One last thought... if this public plan option is supposed to suck so bad... Why are the private insurance companies all so afraid it will drive them out of business?

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Swimmergal:

What most people don't understand is that government run anything is inefficient and costly ineffective. You are not aware of the reimbursements that doctor's offices and hospitals receive from Medicaid and Medicare. Basically, if these providers are to depend on payments for patient care, they will not be able to keep their doors open with payments made primarily from government run programs like that. There will be less doctors and hospitals, longer lines, and quality of health care will decline drastically. So, government run healthcare is not the solution. They haven't even had a meeting with the American Medical Association, nor with the National Association of Health Underwriters. What needs to be done is to bring all of these people together and work on leveling the playing field by lightening up underwriting guidelines so more people can get coverage. There's soooo much that can be done in the private sector and that needs to be addressed. As far as the government run program, maybe a gap plan could be possible for those who truly have tried to get coverage, but can't. A total overhaul from the government is not acceptable, because we can not afford it, more people will die, and quality will decline.

One more thing, how many times have you called a government office and truly received good customer service? Basically, that person could care less. Can you just imagine trying to get help from a government employee? Think about it folks!

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Summerrain:

Swimmergal you said it all! These libs really don't know what they are talking about. Obama is going to ruin this country and I'm afraid they will see we were right and it is going to be to late! God help us!

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Repub:

For those who think our country is a democracy please watch the following video.
http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/

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Patriot:

Let's call things by their appropriate names shall we. It's not "liberalism". It's Socialism or Communism or a mix. Continuing to call Obama and current Democrats in congress liberals is mere destructive political correctness. It is hiding the truth. Both of these 'isms' are for losers. And they cause any country or group which practices them to fail. Socialists and Communists and Liberals all believe that government FORCE is the answer to everything. All of their schemes rely on government force, not on rational individual decisions made by each of those in the population. America is based on the idea of individual freedom and liberty. We could say that the ideal good would be anything that promotes individual freedom and liberty. Anything that removes or inhibits individual freedom and liberty is evil to a greater or lesser extent.

Liberals (socialists/communists) work to reward the non-productive at the expense of the productive. They put forth devious arguments and smoke and mirrors to hide this fact from as many as possible. They do this covertly by doing one thing while saying they are doing something else. Socialists and Communists must always do things covertly because no one in their right mind would buy their garbage if they told the truth. Read George Orwell's “1984” or Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged". These are excellent classic books which describe the results of statist regimes that take away individual freedom and liberty and replace it with despotism all in the name of “equality” and the general good.

Obama's socialist health care proposals are in no way a "reform" of a bad existing system. Obama and his socialist minions have one goal and that is redistribution of wealth from those who create it to those who don't. If you have any paying job at all, then you are one of the productive. At the root of Obama's health care "reform" is to force everyone to conform to his ideas of redistribution of wealth by a total take over of the health care industry so that those who are healthy, and perhaps don't have insurance because they don't want to pay for it, pay for those who are unhealthy -- whether they want to or not. Under Obama’s proposal, the cost of health care for the healthy would sky-rocket. Note that his proposal calls for FORCE to be used on everyone to pay for his scheme. Companies would be FORCED to pay for insurance. You might asked yourself what would happen to a company which disagreed and refused to pay. In the end it would be the gulag for those in control of the company. Ultimately any government mandate relies on FORCE. And force in a free society should only be reserved for criminals. But Obama’s proposals would make criminals of anyone who disagrees with socialist healthcare and refuses to cooperate. Everyone would be FORCED to have insurance. This is not FREEDOM and LIBERTY. This is the antithesis of the ideas on which our country was founded and on which it has survived pretty well until welfare state ideas started taking hold. Obama’s plan leads in only one direction; that is the bleak world depicted in “1984” and seen in other places on our planet such as the USSR, China, North Korea, Cuba, etc.

Freedom does not include a government agent holding a gun to your head and telling you that you must pay for someone else's health care or that you must buy health insurance even if you don’t want to. But that is exactly what Obama’s proposals do. We have already started in this direction since there are already many government run welfare programs such as Medicaid which provide health care for those who can’t afford it. Taxes are forcibly extracted from productive members of society to pay for these schemes. It doesn’t have to be that way. The proper venue for those who need health care but cannot afford it is private, voluntarily funded charities -- something else that Obama wants to wipe out. Under an ideal system of total liberty and freedom, any person or group would be free to start and run charities for the care of those who need it– without forcefully taking from those who don’t wish to spend their hard-earned money or time in that way. Charities rely on their ability to communicate and peoples’ voluntary willingness to help. They do not rely on FORCE.

Note that the hallmark of “liberalism” is government FORCE. Not reason. Not logic. Not individual rational decision making in each person’s best interest. It’s just plain, despicable FORCE applied in the main by non-elected government workers. That would be the scene under Obama’s health care proposal. If that’s what you want, then you are crazy and don’t deserve to live in a free country. If you don’t think this is what you will get under Obama’s socialist schemes, educate yourself and do some serious research into other countries who at this moment have failed socialist health care – Canada and England just to name two obvious examples. And use your common sense. Nothing is free, especially something that typically relies on advanced technology and research such as America’s health care system. Any socialist scheme relies on taking forcefully from some to give to others. What’s the difference between that and a mugger? Nothing except that a mugger is identified as a criminal.

It is amazing to me that the issue of a socialist based health care system is even being debated in the US. The fact that is being discussed shows how far the US has lost its bearings and how bad the education system really is. When discussing giving everyone “free healthcare” as a right, the socialists/communists/liberals leave out who is going to provide the healthcare that they say is a “right”. Read another good book, George Orwell’s “Animal Farm”. By affirming someone’s “right” to so called free unlimited healthcare, the socialists/communists/liberals ignore the rights of those who must provide the healthcare and those who are supposed to pay for it. It’s actually legalized theft of freedom, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

The fact is that under Obama's Socialist/Communist health care take over, doctors would become slaves to the government just as they have in Canada and England and other socialist countries. England used to call it the "brain drain" because so many doctors were leaving their socialist utopia for freedom in the U.S. It is interesting that the one major thing that liberals (Socialists/Communists – take your pick) never want to discuss is who will pay for their schemes and who will provide the services they claim are a “right”. The one thing we know for sure is that any socialist scheme will involve taking from the productive to give to the nonproductive. But there is sort of a law of the universe which can easily be proven to be true. When you reward something, you get more of it. When you penalize something, you get less of it. Nature works that way. The end result of any welfare state or any socialist/communist/liberal economic scheme will always be more people on welfare or living off the so called government and less people producing. Always! It’s nature. It’s the way things work. The USSR is a prime example. North Korea is an even better example. Cuba another example.

Now, even if you have drunk the liberal cool aid, I suggest that you take a real deep look at the truth I have written here. You and your children’s future depend on a rational evaluation of the optimum way your society should work. It is never wrong to support individual freedom and liberty as the highest guiding principle. That is what our long forgotten founders did when they created the Bill of Rights and our Constitution which led to the greatest society in the known history of our planet – until now. Individual freedom and liberty are something that is lacking in every proposal made by Mr. Obama since he became president. In fact, Obama and his socialist friends are currently trampling our Constitution and our freedom in a way I would not have thought possible before he was elected. What do you say we shed some light on his un-American activities and begin to focus again on a free America.

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JB:

Why is it that the liberals here are actually talking about health care, whereas the conservatives can do nothing but level overly broad attacks at liberals as being socialist?

Every country on earth has socialist programs. Police? Fire? Military? Infrastructure? Disaster Relief? Health Care? Having some socialist programs is not equal to having a socialist nation. No one is talking about socializing your business or property, well no one except fear mongering right wing talk show hosts... and no the bail out wasn't socializing businesses either, if you think so you don't know what a socialized business is. Finally, NO ONE is talking about socializing health care in the US to suggest so is either an outright lie or massive ignorance.

A socialist health care system would be one where all health care providers (doctors/hospitals) were government employees/properties. A PUBLIC health insurance plan would be just like any private plan... just like Medicare currently is. It is a plan doctors and hospitals can choose to accept or not just like private plans. There is no forcing going on at any level.

All this FUD being spread by the republicans is pitiful.


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snake0311:

Zebra says: The constitution says to "...Provide for the Common defense ...."
The National Public Health Infra-structure is for the common defense!

Could you please show me that in the constitution?

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BozokieRob:

Hey all you Republicrats! The left and the right are both wrong. They both constantly expand the size and scope of government. This is not the way Americans were supposed to live.

If you follow politics long enough, like I have, you start to become a Libertarian. Because if you know anything about anything, then you know that the reason we are where we are today is because we haven't been following the Constitution. Read the 5,000 Year Leap, Austrian Economics, or read any alternative media source, you'll start to see the truth.

But for God's sake, please stop having this false and manufactured arguments that are really only half-informed, if that.

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BozokieRob:

If you want to talk about health care, we got where we are today by mandating that employers cover employees through HMO's as stated in the HMO Act of 1980-something. The problem arises when you introduce a 3rd party payer system (whether private or public/govt). This is because when a 3rd party is involved, doctors pump them for money and patients visit the doctor for a paper-cut. The only way to truly lower costs is to put the power back into the hands of the patient. If the patient and the doctor were to work out a plan that worked for both parties, this would lower costs dramatically. This is the way it used to work with health care, until the doctors and pharmacists started to get greedy.

The other piece of the argument is that we don't even need to increase health care coverage. If you eliminate the young and healthy who choose not to get coverage, illegal aliens, and people who would sign up for medicare if they knew about it, you're left with something like 11 million, which isn't a big number comparatively.

Finally, what they should be talking about are medical accounts, which would allow people to put away pre-tax dollars into saving accounts to pay for routine doctor's visits. What we call 'health insurance' should only apply to emergency situations.

Lastly, the real issue, or the issue-behind-the-issue is the low quality of our food supply. They are so many synthetic, genetically-modified foods, chemicals, pesticides, fungicides, sewer sludge, in our foods that they're making us sick. This is not a joke and is well-documented. The farms who use such harmful techniques (harmful to us and to the environment) are subsidized by the government, while the small, organic farmer is being economically attacked and run out of the business (hopefully not). This is the truth behind our poor health in this country and its a disgrace.

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Patriot:

Let me correct a misconception if anyone thinks I am a Republican. I am not. Republicans, especially George Bush, are little better than Democrats and in some cases much worse – for instance, Nixon imposing price controls. Both have trashed the Constitution with an ugly short-term pragmatism. Bush abdicated his responsibility to Wall Street shills Bernanke and Paulson, both of whom committed treason to the ideals of our country by bailouts of failed companies. Bernanke isn't even part of the government. The fed is a private, secretive bank. Many people think that the fed is part of the government. It is not. And it is not currently answerable to the government, not even the president. Ask yourself why there has been such a brouhaha over auditing the fed. It refuses to open its books for inspection.. It operate in the dark. It doesn’t answer to Congress or the president. Such an organization obviously is not operating in the best interests of the American people. If they were, they would not be afraid to open their books to Congress.

Bush's $700 billion "stimulus" promoted by Bernanke and Paulson in the interests of their Wall Street friends opened the door for Obama's outright nationalization (government take over) of failed or failing banks, automobile companies and insurance companies. This is typical socialist “reward failure”, “penalize success”. AIG, GM, Citi, etc. should all have been allowed to go under, to declare bankruptcy. That is what they earned. An “F” in business. It is in the best interest of our country that we have and support winners, not losers. Losers lose. No one but a socialist would want that.

What Obama has done, just in the auto industry alone is to use our tax money to prop up failed auto companies that are in competition with successful auto companies. One thing you can say about socialism, it is never fair. It rewards and tries to reverse failure by taking from the successful and giving to the unsuccessful in a misguided attempt to cheat nature. Fair is that the best man or company wins.

What would you think if a referee in a football game suddenly gave the losing team an extra 10 points so that its points would match the winning team’s points? If you were a true football fan you would scream and howl in protest at the unfairness – and then give up following football.

In the case of the auto companies that Obama has taken over, he doesn’t even care about them. He did it to save the associated unions which helped to bring the companies to their knees. They should have gone under with the car companies. Believe me, it was idiotic management too. But the key point is that these companies deserved to fail. And they should have been allowed to fail. Now we have government “czars” administering these companies and Obama saying “I don’t want to be in the car business”. If that is true why is he? And how the insurance business which he is now in? Or banking? His claim that he had to do it so save the country from economic collapse is part of his socialist smoke and mirrors. He wants to do the same to health care. He has used smoke and mirrors by falsely claiming the reason we MUST accept his health care proposals is to get out of our economic quagmire. He will reduce costs, yada yada yada. He doesn’t dare mention his true end goal – total government control of health care, doctors and all in a welfare state health care system. He will put the private sector out of business – this business about private insurers competing with a government system is absurd. As I said before, his plan relies on FORCE, no choice, no liberty, no freedom. All hallmarks of a despotic government. Its ultimate goal is no private sector health care. And, of course, to get your government health care, you will need your federal government issued national ID card. I’ll leave that argument for another day.

The most rational approach to business is “let the best man, or woman, win. Notice that his touchy feely Supreme Court nominee attempted to override valid tests given by a fire department to determine eligibility for promotions and throw out the validly won promotions of white fire fighters in favor of non-whites who didn’t pass the test. That’s Obama’s and liberals’ world. Reward failure! Penalize success. Oh, you passed the test. Sorry, but you’re white so you go to the back of the line. In other words, throw merit out the window at the whim of politicians and judges. Fortunately this nut case was overridden herself by the Supreme Court. By the way, it wasn’t that anyone argued that the test was biased, because many minority individuals passed it. The argument was that not enough minorities passed it to satisfy the idiotic preferences of a mayor – so he threw out the test and acted on whim – another socialist trait. Throw out reason and the rule book, as Obama did in the GM bankruptcy. By the way, supposedly the reason we tax payers threw so much money down a deep hole with GM was so they wouldn’t go bankrupt. We will never get that money back. So much for Obama’s logic. This is one of the reasons we don’t want a socialistic dictator running everything. When they make mistakes, which they always do, they affect an entire country and they waste precious resources. It’s one thing for you to waste your own money. It’s quite another for a despotic leader to take it by force via taxes, inflation, lost wages, higher prices, etc.

Even the biggest private company going bankrupt only affects a limited number of people. And every person associated with such a company made a bad decision. That’s what we call justice, unless there is fraud involved. In today’s market, Ford is a relative winner over GM. Yet GM was given billions of dollars with which to unfairly compete with Ford. Obama went so far as to guaranty GM cars. Does that seem fair or sane to you? Who knows what deals went down in the back rooms and the dark of night? Political control of business is not the American way. It’s a third world socialist/communist way.

Same with AIG. It made big “mistakes” that border on fraud. It should have gone out of business. What would have happened had this occurred? Other successful insurance companies or financiers would have purchased pieces of AIG and the business would have continued. People would continue to be insured, just under better management. Obama’s socialistic method was to pour hundreds of billions of dollars into a losing company, thus allowing them to unfairly continue to compete with other companies who didn’t get the government preference. Obama hates the free market. Why? Because in the free market the hundreds of billions of dollars would be invested in winning companies, not losing companies. But it’s not the function of government to invest in any company or to use tax payer money to attempt for some insane reason to balance the scales and make the losers winners. Even the federal government cannot make winners out of losers. But it can sure mess up the playing field while attempting to do so.

The business of government is simply to be a referee using objective rules. In the case of AIG, Obama used the specious argument that he had to do it or the economics of the entire world would collapse. Last time I checked it has been collapsing in spite of the billions he has wasted on AIG, GM and other give aways. At the same time he has penalized solid, well managed insurance companies by propping up a competitor that should be gone.

Now, taking over car companies, banks and insurance companies is socialism. It is bad because it puts power in the hands of the few and removes competition. Competition where the winner wins and the loser loses is what creates great successful societies and strong people where even the poorest win over what they would have under a socialist regime. Competition is why the price of computers and electronics continually go down while the quality of the product goes up. The field of electronics is still relatively free of government intervention. Government building and repairing of roads is not socialism. Neither is police. These are recognized functions of limited government. One of the primary functions of government is to protect its citizens from bad guys. Thus the police. If you had your police and I had mine, we would have quite an unworkable situation. A discussion of what the proper functions of government should be should always focus on the maximum freedom and liberty for the governed and the least government that is necessary to carry out its duties. This was a primary principle of the founding of our country. Obama has reversed that formula and is attempting to shove his whims down our collective throats – by FORCE of course.

Obama is a socialist and his agenda is 100% socialistic. The health care insurance scheme is merely smoke and mirrors for an ultimate socialistic health care scheme. The end goal is total government control of the health care industry. From my perspective, anyone who supports such a scheme is either grossly uninformed, just plain stupid or wants to be a slave. I for one do not choose to be a slave.

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dafadick:

The government has not learned to run a railroad, post office AN HONEST CONGRESS OR SENATE. WShat makes it can run health care.

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Patriot:

Good point dafadick! Also Fannie and Freddie -- both corrupt government sponsored entities that are largely behind the mortgage meltdown which is at the core of our current economic mess.

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Patriot:

Regarding the Post Office, it is quietly eliminating personel because its business is down. I for one have switched almost every bill over to electronic format rather than delivered by mail. Evidently I am not the only one. This is progress not mandated by government. That's hurting the Post Office but it is truly environment friendly, saving tons of trees from destruction and saving companies tons in postage costs. The postage savings are going into electronics and servers to store the bills so they can be accessed online. So the Post Office loses but trees, computer companies and consumers win. That's how society evolves for the better without government force.

And go UPS and Fedex! Both of these private, for profit, greedy companies (in the minds of socialists such as Obama) out perform the government subsidized Post Office in package deliveries. I won't include letters in the comparison because the Post Office is FORCED by government mandate to deliver letters in often illogical ways.

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RBB:

My concern about all the health care systems is that there are no consequences for those that make no attempt to keep themselves healthy. I get to pay larger premiums to subsidize those who:
1. Smoke
2. Drink too much
3. Eat too much
4. Don't exercise
5. Don't follow doctors orders
6. Do all of the above

I am not saying they should not have access to health care but they should pay more (maybe much more) for their poor lifestyle choices.

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I. M. Stranger:

I've got to agree with Stillow and Patriot here. I don't know what has become of the "liberals". I used to be one. I thought government actually solved our problems. Now I only see government creating problems. Seeing how the government handled the Katrina tragedy in New Orleans made me absolutely sick. Why anyone would want to make government bigger and give them more power after seeing that is totally beyond me.

In my mind, the biggest problem with healthcare in this country is because it is totally dominated by Big Pharma. Doctors are brainwashed in medical school to think that the every disease is due to some chemical disorder in the brain or body that needs to be offset by prescribing some synthetic chemical never seen before in nature. The human body does not know how to deal with these unnatural chemicals, hence you see liver toxicity associated with almost all prescription drugs. Add to that toxins like fluoride in our drinking water, aspartame in soft drinks, mercury and other junk in vaccines, and it's a miracle that any of us can function at all. The government and the FDA are fully aware of this and yet deliberately choose to do nothing about it. In my mind, one of the few legitimate functions of government is to reign in the power Big Pharma and companies like Monsanto. But the feds, whether they be Republican or Democrat, just let them get away with literal murder.

Healthcare costs could go down 90% within one year if the drug companies were driven out of business, and government restricted its involvement in healthcare to providing education about proper diet, exercise and natural supplements. Most of us would never get sick in the first place. Millions of doctors, lawyers, insurers and government bureaucrats would have to find another line of work doing something more productive, like bagging groceries. And of course that's the reason why the system will NEVER change. There's just too many $$$$ at stake here.

It's all based on monstrous lies, corruption and fraud.

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Rootwoman:

Thanks for the link, Repub. Brings much of this left/right, bipartisan bashing into clear perspective. Your post is THE most useful post among these comments.
Obviously, this health care issue is a real hot-button item, eliciting much emotional commentary. Personally, I am relieved that the USA is NOT a Democracy! The comments left here are by actively involved and thinking citizens. Just imagine what a mess we'd have if the generally lazy and mostly ignorant general populace were REALLY running the show!

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