Pollster.com

13% undecided? What are these people waiting for? Maybe they just cannot see much difference between them?

Wow, McCain is SURGING!!!!!

Take that Obama bin Laden!

@m913

If you look at the crosstabs, there is a disproportionate number of undecideds in the independent/other category. Personally, I'd interpret that as people more just being unwilling to commit to an answer in advance, as opposed to not seeing a distinction at this time.

I'd be reluctant about anticipating a McCain "surge."

The Dow lost eight percent of its value on the day of the last debate, the one that will focus on domestic issues. John McCain has several options:

(1) Appease boomshak, alankeyesisawesome, Sean Hannity, and the rest of the lunatic fringe by bringing up Obama's "radical associations." Downsides: no one outside the lunatic fringe is buying it, and today's events make that rhetoric seem desperately irrelevant.

(2) Focus on the issues and get hammered for espousing the GOP's extremely unpopular economic orthodoxy.

(3) Launch some new program, make some new promise, or do something else unexpected. Problem is, there are but so many rabbits McCain can credibly pull out of his hat. At some point, his gimmicks start to look like, um, gimmicks.

Whichever path he chooses, his defeat will continue becoming more inevitable. He's finished, and I think he knows it.

Yes, witness the mighty -1 point surge!

McCain was only -2 in yesterday's IBD poll.

CNN has just updated their map - has Obama at 277.

First MSM outlet to do so...

I smell a landslide.

Of course McTitanic is SURGING, all average polls show him behind by more than +7 and CNN/pollster/RCP have his path to the presidency narrow. He's surging so much that now he's using a big deal of his resources to defend VA,NC states that didn't vote for Democrats for decades. Those Republicans just can't understand that mathematically all polls can't show the same results, their results depend on their party ID weightings

@alankeyesisawesome:
"Wow, McCain is SURGING!!!!!
Take that Obama bin Laden!"

People like you make me sick. Hope you benefit from the Rethug policies of the last 8 years
Stupid F%ck

@BOOMFAIL:

Wow, another angry Demoncrat who needs to resort to namecalling! Shame Shame Shame!

@alankeyesisawesome

Are you losing your bearings?
You're the first one who used namecalling by saying "Obama bin Laden"
Apparently truth hurts
If you weren't a Stupid F%uck as BOOMFAIL said you would let it go as I and other democrats do so far

I am not calling alankeyesisawesome any names. Just clearly stating the fact that her reference to the soon to be President Obama being equivalent to the most dreaded terrorist known to man is the sickest thing one can do. This is soon to be the president for God's sake. I do however stand by my judgement on her intelligence.

DUMB F%CK

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5mdIPNB8t8&eurl=http://www.dailykos.com/main/2

Classy

I think we may need a wiki about our frequent posters. For example, I think it is pretty clear that "alankeyesisawesome" is a parody troll.

A parody troll, I think so. But it goes to show how absurd the Republicans have become that they're indistinguishable from parodies. You can say the most ridiculous things under a conservative alias, and no one knows whether or not it's a joke.

Just-released Rasmussen polls

NM : O 55 / M 42
MA : O 62 / M 34
Kansas : O 41 / M 54
IL : O 56 / M 39`

I like the NM one, a state won by Bush 4 years ago that justifies the McCain's SURGE :-)

@IndependentThinker

To you and those others who are accusing me of name-calling...well, maybe I am, but I feel a moral obligation to do so. In these sort of instances, one has to do what is required out of respect for God's will, and that's what I believe I am doing here. As many of you atheist idiots do not believe in God, this does not apply to you.

this poll always has a high number of hispanics undecided--like 26%--they need to hire a hispanic speaking pollster--and the urban areas and the east and west which have the highest popularity, Obama leads by 20 to 25 percent, overall the lead is still 3%, impossible.

He has a moral obligation to name-call and lie? LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL.

Lying and name-calling is the opposite of moral, something the Far Right and it's followers don't understand.

@Viperlord:
Well, it is the difference between killing an enemy in a declared war, rather than an actual murder.

As there has been a declared war in this election the secular humanists on unborn babies and the traditional family / marriage, I should be able to take whatever means necessary to engage in the quest for moral righteousness...whether or not I have to lie, cheat, etc. We just need to get McCain/Palin elected, he will put enough justices on the supreme court to overturn Roe v. Wade, something that's badly needed. If Jesus Christ were alive today he would not cast a vote for Obama.

If Jesus Christ were alive today he would not cast a vote for Obama.

He isn't an American citizen so he doesn't have a vote. I suspect Bush wouldn't have allowed him into the country because he had radical views..

"37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Doesn't sound like a Republican position, does it?

Karl Roves Map: http://www.rove.com/uploads/0000/0042/McCain-Obama_10_14_08.pdf

How about that WA Post story about McCain cell towers? WHAT A MAVERICK working against free **** from lobbiests!

@alankeysisgod, whatever happened to turning the other cheek? being a pagan atheistic godless communist, means that i am perpetually misinformed and sidetracked by the devil (btw, how do we know you are not the voice of the devil? the devil, after all, is very subtle), but i have heard that turning the other cheek was very much a focal point of christianity. one of the tenets, one might say, were one so inclined.

what say ye, alankeysisawesome?

What does Jesus say about calling your new wife a C**NT and leaving the 1st one after she was mangled in a car accident?

@metsmets

I mean if he were an American citizen...and very much likely as we are the most Christian nation out there!

And as for those biblical passages, that applies to private charity, not government charity. You see, private Charity can be based upon Christian tenets...and any sort of nonreligious charity is completely and utterly worthless....just face it.

MN,
(from earlier) No, no, I only meant that the constitution decides who is qualified to be president.

@alankeyesisawesome

I go to a local church that will and does perform gay marriages. We have a large gay membership - Democrats and Republicans. We are not "declaring war" on your view of marriage and we respect your right to not conduct such ceremonies in the church of your choice. We do not feel the state of California should redefine marriage if it deprives some of its citizens of the benefits of marriage. We do not believe in discrimination.

McCain's third debate loss in a row begins in 10 min! Stand by!

@MNLatteLiberal

I'm not falling for that...you want me to turn the other cheek...well, what happens when I look back and the institution of marriages is ruined because we allowed homosexuals to marry, and then subsequently people were allowed to marry sheep? I think that is terrible, I'm not turning the other cheek for that.

wakeup, does it say in the constitution that one always has to be born in the United States to be considered a natural born US Citizen?

alankeyesisawesome LOL yah. Don't let gay's marry. You think the divorce rate is through the roof now due to the mockery evangelicals have made of marriage! Just wait!:)

@NW Patrick

I won't address your question because we're here to talk about the presidential race and polling, not talk about unsubstantiated claims about McCain.

Next!

NYT just announced that Obama won the debate easily...

alankeysisgod:

I was under the impression that Christians weren't supposed to pass judgment.... you know, Matthew 7:1? You should know that by heart, considering I, a "pagan atheistic godless communist" can recite it word for word.

RE: If Jesus Christ were alive today he would not cast a vote for Obama.

What the hell does being an American citizen have to do with the way Jesus would vote? If you remember, Jesus was a Middle Eastern... and Republicans like do declare war on... Middle Easterners! And since he had no oil, your political party would have killed him.

@metsmets

I'm sorry to say, but just based on your description of the church, it does not sound like it is a Christian church. You cannot cherry-pick specific bible verses and discard all others.

and any sort of nonreligious charity is completely and utterly worthless.

@alankeyesisawesome

Why, because it doesn't lead to eternal salvation? Is that all you are concerned with?

It was a parable taught by Jesus Christ about how the true follower would behave and thus identifed as a true follower. By his or her actions.

I will vote for candidate who best reflect that view. And continue my private charity...

MN,
I know what you are getting at... US military bases count as US territory.

You know, it seems lately that most of the gays are republicans (think the bathroom fiasco that the Republican senator had... LOL!

WOW McCain's is so dishonest!

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/washingtonpostinvestigations/2008/10/exclusive_verizon_gave_cell_to.html#more

@NW Patrick

My parents are also evangelical Christians and they have been married for over 30 years. So no logic in your argument! Also, it is the atheists that have the highest rates of divorce, I bet. Haven't seen any studies about it but pretty sure it's the case.

alankeysisgod, of course you are not turning the other cheek; that much is obvious. the issue is not you per se, but the central tenet of christianity as it pertains to the alan keys of this christian republican world in general? do they reject turning the other cheek because the devil got to them?

and once again, how do we know that you are not the devil?

No dems are just out and proud gays. Republicans are in the closet..it's sad.

@alankeyesisawesome

We consider ourselves to be a Christian Church - part of a major denomination that help found the United States. We said a prayer after Bible Study last night to the same Jesus that you believe in. We believe that the gospel is valid for gay people too. We don't condemn them or consider them less worthy of God's love...

..apparently you do..

@metsmets:

Exactly...we need to kill 2 birds with one stone...allow people to realize salvation and feed them as well. It is the most efficient way to provide charity and by only feeding them, you are just throwing away money into people's mouths.

@wakeup, of course they do, but only after August 4, 1937. I forget when McCain was born.

(and no, you have no idea what i am getting at, btw, but nice try :)

here is a hint, though:
Btw, does Mexico count as a US Base?

@metsmets:

Of course we need to love the sinner hate the sin...But we cannot just
sit idly by and approve of that sin being committed, which is
apparently what your church does.

Well, I've apparently won this debate here, now gonna go off and watch the real one. Of course McCain will win.

debate comment #1:
mccain - bad choice of tie, makes him look even more bland than he is. where was cindy to dress him up? and stripes on TV? pah-leez

"alankeyesislame:

Well, I've apparently won this debate here, now gonna go off and watch the real one. Of course McCain will win."

Dude, you need to stop hitting the acid.

nice, Obama has a stellar hit with the first answer. stays at the very top throughout the 1st response. meanwhile, mccain is flatlining with his rebuttal about joe the 280K/yr plumber

mccain is losing the middle with joe the plumber story, women faster than men.

obama is still flat with the details, ah, going up when talking about the middle class bracket. nice! soundbites, is all the americans can digest.

Like McCain knows someone who only makes 280K/yr, unless that is the contractor he uses on his AZ homes.

mccain is STILL losing them with joe the plumber! I don't think America is sympathetic to the $280,000 joe the plumber.

Ohio undecided response to Obama's answer to Q2 hits the ceiling again. McCain is still flat, a minute into his response.

McCain is doing better than in the first two debates, but the voter response is still below Obama's. Especially with women.

Bob saved McCain's butt with that "time", as McCain ventured into his favorite planetarium outer space and the meter dipped. not fair! give McCain enough rope to hang himself, even if it takes another minute!

Yawn... McCain is recyling the "I'm going to cut spending" crapola.

Perhaps he doesn't realize that Billion is more than Million.

Nice Obama with the Fox News dig.

McCain is flat lining with women on Q3. OK with men.

Nice answer from Obama on crossing over to the other side of the isle. Not registering with the undecideds though. He ought to mention 10 billion a month we won't be spending in the war!

Ooh here it comes, the "terrorist" question...

Here it comes!

I like this advertising question from Bob. Nice!

McCain is flat! Goldwater gets ZERO traction with the voters.

McCain lames out. Brings up the townhalls? Say what? If Obama had agreed to do the town halls he wouldn't be a terrorist?

Say what?

McCain is not mentioning Ayers! chicken****!

Nice turn it back to the issues. Way to go O.

Obama /looking McCain in the eyes/: John, 100% of your ads have been negative.
McCain /blinking at Obama like a doll/: it's true.

LOL

I think McCain has got the men.

MN I'm watching CSPAN and they don't have the needles. What does the CNN focus group look like during this discussion of negative ads?

NICE!!! OBAMA CONFRONTS MCCAIN on "kill him and terrorist! And MCCAIN LOSES IT, interrupting him. Not going to play well.

Erratic.
Another interruption!
LMAO

McMELTDOWN

McCain is getting angry.

Just wanted to come on to comment about how everything is going during the debate...overall, McCain is very calm & collective, focusing in on the economy.Barack HUSSEIN Obama is erratic, all over the place, engaging in personal attacks. Looks like Obama is gonna blow at any time.

McCain is FLAT during the negative ads and he is avoiding the issue now.

Obama was a bit better with the response from the audience. Nice, reasoned answer with the needle up about 80%, 1Agnry, esp. women.

Obama is getting the women.

Ooooh, Obama is going to unleash it now on ACORN. McCain wandered into it. It's on his shoes now.

Obama brings up Ayers!
Bull by the horns.

McCain looks constipated during Obama's response on ACORN. The turtleman's got something up his sleeve. he is grinning

McCain is below 50% with both men and women on Ayers. The first time the meter dipped below 50%!

Obama has passed the test. Obama stayed cool and McCain is stumbling. It didn't work!

Joe the Plummer???

Obama passed the Ayers test with flying colors!

zotz - fwiw, agree with your assessment thus far.

Intrade's taking off for Obama as well!

women just don't like Palin, period

McFail just lost men too with the Iraq War non-sequitor. Nice

im an obama supporter...but i aint sure hes winning this debate

Obama aced the VP question. It looks like the women don't like McCain's answer. I think Obama is too cautious in criticizing Palin. It's like a taboo.

The party at my house keeps telling McCain to let Obama finish. Seems to me like he is being rude again.

jonny87, are you watching the meter on CNN?
it tells a great story: mccain had 'em and lost 'em. somewhere between joe the plumber and iraq.

Uh McCain is starting to condescend again. Yuk!

@1Angry, McCain was at his worst during the time Obama brought up Palin's rally battle cries of terrorist and kill him. 3 times. And the meter caught it. They HATED McCain's interruptions.

Since then, McCain chilled and is more civil.

I thought the line would go up when McCain mentioned drilling. It didn't go up.

Good the mood here seems to be tracking the CNN meters then.

Great! I saw McCain roll his eyes! Keep doing that!

The angry old man strikes again!!!

@1Angry, are you perchance in Ohio, surrounded by indecisive women? (If so, keep them away from boomshack; they are vulnerable)

oooh, mccain just lost women again. below 50% on the nafta thing. wonder why? he is flat attacking obama and bringing up Hoover. Americans have no clue who the f Hoover was! "Hoover, isn't that a vacuum?"
McFlat.

Obama's doing great. Keep looking into the camera! One more debate where even if this was a tie, (which it is not) McCain is NOT knocking him out by any means. Keep up the great job Obama.

through the roof on healthcare for Obama! Stellar.

McCain is flat: his coldheartedness shows through.

Oh god not Joe the plumber again...

Memo to McCain staff, we don't care about Joe the plumber.

omfg: Enough with Joe the Plumber!

Was he a Marvel or DC Comics character?

McFail holding steady below 50% with women criticizing Obama's hcare

Joe the Plummer AGAIN! McCain dips WAY below 50 when he keeps bringing the plummer up. WTF with Joe the plummer?!?!?

McCain loses every debate because he talks about Obama more than anything he will DO for the country. He's obsessed with President Obama!

MNlatteliberal,

yeh ive got cnn on, dont think obama did aswell on the economic issues as in the previous debate, nor did obama have much up his sleeve for ayers. (altho healthcare is always a massive winner for obama)

I love it when Obama hits McCain on the tax credit thing. Makes me smile.

McCain has performed better today. I am going to predict (in honour of Boomshak) that the polls will give a narrow win to McCain

McCain looked so petty talking about ACORN and Ayers. Did anyone notice the change of subject when McCain went right into the economy. It was so akward.

The "0 penalty" line from Obama looked like an uppercut. McCain was practically star-struck.

the undecideds just do not like anything even remotely confrontational. Obama was riding 100% w both men and women until he began explaining the drawbacks of McPlan. Now he has 80-90 women and 60 men.

Enough about Joe already, no one cares.

Hey I just worked something out! He's simply replaced "My Friends" with "Joe the Plumber"

Seriously... think about it

How come Obama explains John's health care plan better than John does?

"big government at its best" earns McFail the lowest dip of the debate. Now McCain is in the ****house with men AND women - 40%

I am tied of references to Joe the plumber
Joe the plumber doesn't represent all Americans

Obama looks like he's getting whipped...this is definitely a turning point in the election. The best part is when McCain brought up Palin's autistic daughter, only to result in an attack from Obama.

Obama aced the health care question. McCain seems to be uninspiring. Whoa! Women went down when McCain mentioned Joe the plummer. Obama has destroyed McCain's plan and McCain responds with sarcasm. Not convincing!

Senator Government?

McCain just droped to 15.7 on intrade. They don't like his performance.

Here it comes, "legislate from the bench."

Yawn...

alankeyesisawesome-
What debate are you watching? What planet are you on? What are you smoking?

McCain looks constipated

@zotz

Ignore alankeyes, he's an uber-troll.

Once again, this is the future vs. the past.

@CalIndie, I agree! McCain took it in the shorts on the ZERO for joe the plumber response by Obama. He looked like a thunderbolt hit him. I think McCain began believing his own ad lies.

Dumbfounded is the word.

Obama just reached 83 on intrade.com

His name is Joe Wurzelbacher. Why don't they call him, "Mr. Wurzelbacher"? Where's the respect?

Nice O turned it into equal pay for equal work. Not attacking McCain just pointing out there differences. That is how he wins.

Well once again, even if this debate is a TIE it's + Obama. We all know this. Where's the "GAME CHANGER?"

Independent Thinker - high five! I brought that constipation up first: October 15, 2008 9:38 PM.
LMAO. Guess i am not so liberal after all, just another independent thinker

McCains is now stumbling down the Abortion, vote present argument. McCain is attacking again and he looks angry and old.

Keep it up John.

Metamuusil for all if I am president! grrrrrrrrrrrrr

if this is mccain kicking ass, i do NOT want to see him as president. he is too weak and too unbalanced. major yuckies

Wow! Men really like McCain's abortion attack! Women, not so much!

He's doing it again. Like he's sitting on a stick and it keeps poking his enlarged prostate.

McSnappingTurtle popping his head out. I wonder what meds they drugged him on.

Obama just scored through the roof on the Roe v Wade. McFail is not doing that well here. Just lost the women.

Last question

Wait a minute, he's going to take care of babies, but he doesn't want to expand government?

What are he and Cindy going to dip into their own funds and start taking all of these babies?

I wonder how many times Grandpa can say Obama's name. It really is ALL ABOUT OBAMA! This guy is clueless!

Was a slow start for O and now he is really bringing it home with a cohesive message that is mopping the floor with McCain.

Where, oh where is the promised ass kicking?
This is no Ronald Reagan or his foot soldier. And not even his foot. This is a beaten stump of a man. Here is your McCain.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you your next President, President Barack Obama.

Here, Here!!!

McCain losing the education question, and that, kids, is the last one of the debates. Now the McAds are going to get REALLY ugly. Brace yourselves, for they are not going down gracefully.

If people watched only the first 30 minutes, then McCain will win this debate. If they stuck with it until now, I think Obama did much better.

obamas certainly warmed up, but its the economy and he wasnt as good as usual.

Well, I thought McCain started out strong. I thought his line about not being Bush was good. But since then the debate has been fairly even, which may not be good for McCain.

what? sending combat fatigued vets with stress disorders into grammar schools without certifying them? brilliant! john, you just earned yourself another star. just when you thought we've seen the bottom, it's scrape, scrape, scrape.

Is this enough for people in Colorado, NM, PA, etc., to make them change their minds and vote McCain?

@MN

I don't know that he'll neeessarily rachet up the ugly after this. It looks to me like other Republicans are starting to avoid him because they don't want to get drowned by a campaign that is obviously circling the bowl.

Sarah probably won't get the memo, but he would be smart to not get really ugly unless he's intent on finishing off his party once and for all.

j87, agree to a point, Obama ought to have mentioned the money wasted in iraq during the economy response. no matter, though. Obama won this in the public eye yet again.

McSnarly came out too many times. McAngry. McConstipated.

My God we just paused the TIVO..some of the faces Grandpa is making are HILARIOUS. Cartoonish. ERATIC!

I'm a public school teacher and I can tell you that all of this talk about NCLB and their plans for the schools is naive. It would cost huge amounts of money to equip schools with the technology they need to compete.

McCain keeps saying he's going to take care of the children, but what does he mean. He keeps talking about small government but he's going to take care of the children?

Blink, blink, blink...

I hope you are right, Angry. I hope that McCain thinks about his legacy at this point. I've seen, though, and you've seen that McCain gets erratic and knee-jerky and does not reason things out of late.

The RNCC will start shooting bigger turds, no doubt.

Sweet Jesus ... did McCain just snort??!

he never really went into its the wrong philosophy...eg...mccain believes in trickle down, i belive in investing in the american people. trickle down doesnt work...
Your right iraq money should have been brought up.

McCain's sarcasm will turn off the undecideds.

Here's comes the closing argument
Go Obama, make sure you say can you afford 4 more years of this ? period

....about joe the plumber....if we invest in the american people and create good well paying jobs we will get more money in the pockets of all americans meaning that joe will have more customers spending more money.

vmval, not too jinx it, but methinks you gave it to mccain too early, just like in debate 2, afair. *g*

McCain just doesn't look very presidential, cutting Obama off, sarcastic and condescending. Where is the dignity, the reserve that a president should have?

also...did obama ever mention 'middle class'???...i think he was a little flustered, not on his game

So was that an @$$ kicking? I thought McCain was supposed to go MMA on Obama, did I miss it?

i just figured out the link between joe the plumber and mccain's constipation! qed.

I hope you're right....

Oh boy where;s the freaking game changer that McCain desperately needs?

@MN

Awesome, just awesome...

I said Obama would be debating Joe Wurzelbacher, I said Ayers would be brought up at 30 min mark, & I said education would make a splash.

I think he was somehow better than in the other debates, especially the first part. He looked more energized than in the last one, the townhall meeting. However, I was left wandering about McCain's policies.

I don't know if it is because I'm a woman, but there is something about McCain or the way he conducts himself that turns me off. I mean, judging from the "focus group" in CNN. Did you notice how women reacted to McCain?

*I admit that this was the best for your guy, at least the first 30 minutes :-) Congratulations!!!

Paul Begala is talking about McCain's reaction shots being McNasty. I have to say, our pollster.com analysis here is dead on. with my hat off to alankeysisgod, of course. he is the most insightful of us all in absence of mr boom.

high fives all around. color me happy, dudes and dudettes.

...this aint a lock guys

I wasn't watching, but everything I've read so far indicates a slight Obama victory.

Guys, McCain supporters I think that your guy did better this than around. However, was this the game-changer? We'll see :-)!!

I'm a gay man so like a woman and I find McCain angry and his sarcasm is a BIG BIG turn off.

carl29, scroll back up and read our remarks. we've talked about the women vs men reacting, and your assessment is dead on.

Roland Martin is awesome.

oh, and since wakeup called it, i have to give the debate to him. so, we have mccain - zero, obama - 2, and biden tied with wakeup with one each.

It's official!
Obama is Mr. Cool.
McCain is Mr. Magoo.

LET ME BE THE FIRST TO SAY IT.

This race is over.

so far MSNBC is Obama 83.3%

The attacks and erratic behavior from McCain are not doing him any favors. Plays right into what Obama is saying about him.

McCain Grumpy, rolled his eyes, sighed, interrupted Obama, etc. Style and presentation matters as was evident in JFK vs. Nixon.

Obama won hands down. Did you see the meter of undecideds in Ohio? WAY UP for Obama, and neutral at best for McCain, with many dips below even mark into negative reaction.

It. Is. Over.

the top issue is the economy...does anyone really think obama did much better on that???

I agree that McCain did well for about the first 30 minutes. After he got negative and started talking about Ayers and ACORN, he lost it.

Just caught the end of Fox with Luntz's focus group. Great night for Obama!

O 85.9 CBS News

This debate felt a lot like the first debate to me. McCain was more energetic and on the attack, but Obama was more composed and together.

We'll see what the focus group polling says but I'm going to bet a small Obama net+

I don't know if this is the game-changer that McCain needed, but I have to say that finally McCain looked "alive."

You know what part made me laugh? The part when McCain was attacking Obama for all the Ayers-Acorn-Lewis nonsense, and Obama focused the conversation back to the economy and the issues. When it was McCain turns he went back to the nonsense but ended by saying that his campaign was all about the economy and the issues, eh? I really found it funny :-)

The Frank Luntz focus group on FOX said Obama won the debate.

@NW Patrick, this isn't a gay or straight thing, imho, this is about thinking and perceiving. Obama gave empathetic, reasoned responses and that is why women and thinking people like him. McCain was condescending (though not as much as b4), sniping and snarly. A snapping turtle.

Obama has a charming, winning smile that disarms the opponent's argument when Barack disagrees. McCain makes constipated, blinking and startled faces.

I think people who are thinking and attentive to details perceived all that. Women on a more intuitive level, perhaps, but not always.
Oh, and if that makes me gay, I really don't care.

Fox has Obama at 75%...

Asian markets are tanking as we speak. McCain might have have to share headlines with that.

Obama looked sleepy.

Obama looked like a President.

@Publius

That is what I've said after every debate.

Obama is already winning all of the instant polls.:) See what steady and presidential looks like?

I am thrilled to see that so many depend on others to find out who won. FOXN "conservatives" are sell-outs.

MSNBC is playing their focus group with the Independent, Dem, Rep graph.

They are doing a section on Ayers and McCain tanks with all three.

He has looked presidential. I think his campaign has done exactly the right thing in making sure he presents himself as the un-McCain.

Good debate. I wanted topics to cover more subjects. The moderator was good tonight.

NW Patrick,
Obama wins every instant poll... the system is flawed.

Well, CNN's panel still seems very undecided, though three said they would vote for Obama. But I thought overall the debate was a draw, which I guess is good for Obama.

@marctx

Yeah this was by far the best moderated format of the three. It was nice to see them engage each other.

Schieffer was superb.

Where was the ass kicking?

McCain again missed a chance to make a difference. I am sure conservatives liked what he said, but he didn't convince many (any?) to change sides.

wakeup, what ELSE did you expect from Faux News? Fair and balanced? We've been saying that they are sell outs FOR YEARS!

OneAngryDwarf:

"@marctx:Yeah this was by far the best moderated format of the three. It was nice to see them engage each other."

I agree totally. They both did good, I don't know who did better because I'm biased. But the moderator was the best in the three debates.

Does anybody think that the media will be contacting Joe Wurzelbacher?

I see the trolls are out. Anyone who thinks McCain won this debate is either drunk, high or ....McCain looked like he was knocking on deaths door.

Mike Murphy said McCain came close but no home run. Also McCain continued to have problems with tone. Also he said no knockout.

I don't see how this debate will help McCain.
Obama didn't stumble and McCain still looks peeved and grouchy.

Aww wake up is Fox News not giving you the red meat?:)

MN,
I was driven to FOXN by CNN jumping in the tank for Obama.

LOL@NW comment to wakeup.

i dunno, 1Angry, I kinda enjoyed watching the old man wandering about the stage during the second debate. symbolic of having lost his moral compass.

I think McCain will probably put Joe in an attack ad. The media will see it as a gimmick which it will be.

Who's going to let a plummer tell them how to vote? Would you?

Fox does favor the right. So what. How long was it that all of the major networks, before Fox came along, favored the left. Libs shouldn't complain.

CBS: Obama 53-McCain 22

Sweet. I'm happy to be wrong in this instance.

CNN

Obama 58
McCain 37

zotz:

"I don't see how this debate will help McCain."

I don't either. McCain is in the basement. He did better than before because of a great moderator, but Obama still won. McCain is in trouble and he didn't get the knockout he needed. However, he did better this time.

Is Joe the Plummer the same guy as Joe six pack???

CNN poll 58 Obama to 31 McSame!

@wakeup

Katie Couric is talking Joe the plumber right now on her webcast.

CNN poll results:

Obama 58%

McFossil 31%

Which debate were you watching Alan Keyes??

David Gergan says "Obama's won three in a row."

If you people start drifting from your original notions because of these early flash polls...........

OK
CNN poll of 40%D, 30%R and 30%I

McCain

B4 After
Fav 51 49
Unfav 45 49

Obama
B4 After
Fav 63 66
Unfav 35 33

Obama improves, McWorsens.
QED

The fat lady just entered the building

CNN

Obama 58
Mccain 31?

CNN's poll of people who watched the debate.
40% Dem
30% GOP

Who did the best job in the debate?
Obama 58%
McCain 31%

Obama
Fav before 63%
Fav after 66%
Unfav before 35%
Unfav after 33%

McCain
Fav before 51%
Fav after 49%
Unfav before 45%
Unfav after 49%

this probably old news... but interesting.

not all have obama... as usual the very scientific drudge report poll has mccain with 74% and has joe the plumber all over his page

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/15/colin-powell-fuels-speculation-possible-endorsement/

if obama had performed as well as he should of tonight he could of been through the roof.

I must say I'm a little surprised by the CNN results. I thought it was a tie. McCain did well at first, Obama did well toward the end.

cjk002,
Is she really... In my market there is a dispute with the cable co. and the local CBS affiliate so no CBS for me. I wonder if she will ask him what papers he reads.

MaediaCurves has Obama winning the debate 53 to 36.

http://mediacurves.com/

where the 7734 does drudge get some of these story lines?

wakeup, i called the debate throughout and so did 1Angry and a couple of other posters here. I am changing nothing due to the flash polls. I don't know about others, but i have a feeling they might be sticking to their opinions too.

the bottom line is that CNN commentary and other network commentary IN ADDITION to the polls agree with our assessment almost verbatim. David Gergen mentioned the snarkly startled and angry faces of McCain before he even read the memo I faxed him from my liberal media vault.

oh, it's a good day to be a liberal in America!
I just hope they have great security around Obama because the right wing militia/black helicopter types are gonna start coming out of the woodwork now. I have serious concerns for Barack's life in the next 3 weeks.

58 to 31 is through the roof in my book!

McCain just doesn't know how to campaign. He kinda goes after the other guy, but is afraid to really sink his teeth in.

If we don't see movement toward McCain in VA, MO, OH, FL, etc by early next week, stick a fork in him.

mirrorball,

me too. people clearly much more interested in how it looks tonight. should be interesting to see the economic polling results.

I will not drift from my earlier perception, but I will give myself pause that perhaps I was focusing on the wrong things while watching.

I, for one, thought this was a clear draw. But these polls aren't reinforcing that.

Bring out teh brooms.

CaliforniaIndie

It was indeed a draw in that no one hit one out of the park, and no one fell on their face.

However, McCain can't live with a draw. He has to move some voters. If Senator Government stays over 50%, McCain is sunk.

I thought Obama was so on top in the last 30 minutes that it was a technical knockout.

The turning point was Ayers and Palin's Campaigning. Obama remained positive throughout.

McCain looked uptight, angry and backwards looking. Negative. He didn't really define himself sufficiently different to Bush.

MN,
Show me a single time Gergen mentioned anything remotely negative about Obama... And please do not bring up Cambell Brown, I do not want nightmares tonight.

Obama is 3 for 3 in the debates. Even the phony "surge" alankeyes and boom have been pulling out of their arses is over.

But please, please, Boomshak (and other trolls), stay up late and watch every last minute of election night coverage. I know I will. :)

Sleepy Obama... Axelrod will tuck you in.

obama should of nailed him first half, why didnt he!

I think that the "Joe the plumber" thing didn't connect with people because the Joe in discussion is making more that $250,000, which is the group that will most probable, almost certain, see it taxes increased with Obama. My question: How many average Americans either make more than $250,000 or own a business that makes more than that? See why it doesn't work with the average Joe working at the factory?

I think that "Joe the plumber" story only helped make the argument that indeed McCain is looking after the guy with the above-average-income. No the shift worker.

Only 3 weeks to go. So I thought that McCain was spirited in the first 30 minutes... but he lost his way with his "snarkyness" grunts, rolling of eyes, interrupting and just plain creepyness.

On policy, obama was too defensive in my opinion..but the onus was not on him to really change anything... Why fix what aint broke.

I dont think that Obama won the debate in as much as mccain was turning people off with his demeanor and so perceptions that have obama above 50% are not changing.

--Big mistake by McCain---- I think he just about alienated women with the abortion discussion he should have taken a more nuanced position (a page from obamas book). No life of mother exception... he actually minimized it... yuck... Women are solidly in Obamas corner now... now lets see if they all turn up to vote.

Personally I think that its over... Republicans know it are now spending money to save congressional seats.

I think the fat lady is singing and I hear.."signed sealed and delivered..."

I think Joe the Plumber, like boomshak, needs to find a better accountant. I don't think there's any way in the world this guy is going to be affected by Obama's tax plan.

Good steady performance by Obama. McCain really has nothing to offer.

Obama crushed McCain in that debate I think it was by far his biggest and clearest win in all the debates.

CBS poll of undecided voters shows 53% thought Obama won compared to 22% for McCain.

wakeup, are you calling David Gergen a liberal shill? cause that's what it sounds like.

if Obama summarily outperformed McCain, what is there to say that is negative. Obama won. While he did not nail it like he could've, he won nonetheless.

I will remind you, that it was Obama who brought up Ayers directly in response to the negative ads question. McCain had a chance to bring it up - he, after all, was the 1st one to respond, and he chickened out. Obama grabbed the bull by the horns.

Objectively, there was nothing wrong with Obama's overall performance. Gergen did mention that Obama looked weaker in the first 30 minutes, but then got his legs. That's almost a direct quote, afair. That's kinda negative, and pragmatic.

CNN panel has two right wing shills on their panel: Bennett and that Alex dude who looks like he overtanned with George Hamilton. On the left it has Paul Begala and Roland Martin. The others are the centrists. Gergen calls it like he sees it. Period.

Carl29

A plumber who doesn't own his own business is taking home over $250k a year? Are you really sure about that?

If so I am in the wrong line of work, lol!

Here are some quick online polls I've hunted down:

CNN.com Quick Vote

McCain: 14% (14,430)
Obama: 83% (85,637)
Tie: 03% (3,205)

MSNBC.com Quick Vote

McCain: 12.5% (13,879)
Obama: 84.8% (94,294)
Tie: 1.5% (1,666)
Not Sure: 1.3% (1,409)

CBSNews.com Quick Vote (No Vote Count Data)

McCain: 12.31%
Obama: 85.92%
Tie: 1.77%

Let us see if the media attacks Joe Wurzelbacher... picture he and Palin stumping in Ohio. Watch the polls narrow.

carl29, zactamundo, chica! i was saying the same thing and so were the undecideds: your average $40K hockey mom household has a hard time feeling sorry for $280,000/yr Joe the plumber. I have had a little experience with the plumbers over the years and anyone making $100/hr by watching the water flow downhill warrants little sympathy from joe 6 pack who has to call him to unplug the drain.

280K/yr just does not resonate with the middle class in this crisis. it underscores how out of touch mccain is with what is middle America.

@BigMike

Joe the plumber, i believe wants to buy the business where he works and I believe that may boost him to 250K... Now speaking from knowledge, if you are making over 250K and you are complaining about taxes you need to fire your accountant...seriously.

Bigmike,

In my understanding, the guy was or would be the owner of his plumbing business. McCain wanted to make it sound like Obama will raise taxes on the poor plumber. Obama has repeated over and over that if you make less than $250,000 a year, your taxes will not increase, most probable they will decrease. So, I as a voter am left thinking that Joe(and McCain) is either wrong that his taxes will raise or that Joe is making more than $250,000.

MN,
Gergen follows his wallet, he is a sell out.
Vonne,
Those quick online polls are rediculous.
The rest of you,
Start attacking Joe Wurzelbacher, I dare you. Let's see if media attacks him... if so, watch the polls narrow.

CBS News

Uncommitted voters (only 638)

who won the debate

Obama: 53%
McCain: 22%
Draw: 25%

Who in God's name is Joe Wurzelbacher? Is he "Joe the Plumber"...if so, let me begin by saying that I really don't feel sorry for anyone who is making a quarter of a million dollars per year, sorry...even if the tax was at 50% he would be making more than 90% of Americans...boo f*cking hoo Joe...

obama won economy by about 25 points on CNN...ill take that.

MNlatteliberal,

I was just trying to think like my cashier at the grocery store. What could that woman be thinking about "poor" Joe the plumber and his business (which seems to bring him more than $250,000) compare to her making $7 an hour standing up all day long, making what? $1,000 a month? I don't think that my cashier's heart was breaking thinking about Joe.

Sarah Palin and Joe Sixpack campaign in Ohio, AP story calls Joe a racist, Murtha accuses Joe of being from western PA.

A plumbing business will surely bill more than $250K a year. Materials, vehicles, gas, taxes, wages, advertising.

But a plumber who is not the owner doesn't see anywhere near that much. The guy is lucky if he get paid $30-40 an hour. And he has to be a master plumber to make that kind of money. Apprentices and laborers don't make anywhere near that. Just over 2000 hours a year. That is less than $100k. Figure the guy works a lot of overtime, maybe he makes $150k.

That is the point. Obama is gonna redistribute Joe's wealth, and Joe ain't making $250k.

wakeup, if Gergen is following his wallet, is that not the market speaking and paying him what he is worth? and if so, is he not then the PERFECT embodiment of CAPITALISTIC SYSTEM? It's capitalism, wakeup - everybody wins!

giggles and farts to you, I am signing off for the night.

Look it was a beauty contest. McCain never had a chance. Blinking, spluttering, getting angry. He wa never going to win.

Even Fox texter poll has Obama winning. Sometimes its not what is said, but how it is said. obama looked like a president, McCain looked like a flailing desperate old man.

Game over Obama won the debates

It has started... the liberals are attacking Joe Wurzelbacher. Watch the polls narrow.

@Big Mike,

I would agree with your assessment, but only to the point that Joe wouldn't even be included in that tax bracket. Any business expense (materials, vehicles, gas, rent, etc.) can be written-off...therefore any tax would only be on a quarter million of Joe's profits, which he could find MORE tax breaks for under Obama's proposals in that:

1. It's doubtful that Joe is outsourcing his jobs overseas (Tax break)

2. If he is making that kind of profit he should be providing or contributing to a health plan for his employees (and himself) (Tax break)

MN,
Gergen irks me.

carl29, afair (again only afair), when Obama was door knocking a couple of days ago in Ohio, this Joe the plumber asked a direct question, where he mentioned that he makes $280,000 a year.

And you cashier at the grocery store, think about her when she has to call that plumber in the middle of the night or after her shift and pay him $100/hr for a couple of hours plus the drive both ways. $300 out of her pocket is a week's worth of pay before taxes.

All of her involuntary associations (as well as mine) of the plumbers are NEGATIVE. you might as well be talking about root canals. This is just the WRONG horse for McCain to hang his fortunes on. He'd been better off with the six-pack variety.

Obama won by a landslide.

Gramppy McGrump did himself no favors.

Even FOX News panned him badly.

@wakeup:

You are not representative of the majority of Americans, here is the evidence:

CNN.com Quick Vote

McCain: 14% (14,430)
Obama: 83% (85,637)
Tie: 03% (3,205)

MSNBC.com Quick Vote

McCain: 12.5% (13,879)
Obama: 84.8% (94,294)
Tie: 1.5% (1,666)
Not Sure: 1.3% (1,409)

CBSNews.com Quick Vote (No Vote Count Data)

McCain: 12.31%
Obama: 85.92%
Tie: 1.77%

Gotta go too gang.

I have an AM meeting and I have to kick some butt. I promise to do a better job of it than McCain did.

My parting thought.

GOD DAMN BARACK OBAMA

wakeup, thanks for letting me know.

first thing tomorrow morning, i am calling cnn and having him removed and replaced with alan keys.

can you wait till tomorrow morning? i really need to get some z's.

wakeup-
President Barack Hussein Obama. better get used to it

Final Verdict from the Conservative Mouthpiece:

FoxNews.com Quick Poll

McCain: 32%
Obama: 68%

Bigmike,

Maybe that's McCain problem. He doesn't know how to say things. I was left thinking that this Joe was making more than $250,000, which doesn't sound like poor to me. Sorry for Joe because right now I'm worried about me and my family's financial future, and believe me: We don't make the kind of money Joe makes, although we are no poor. My husband is a college professor and I'm a law student as all you know.

oh my God poor joe the plumber makes 100k. poor poor broke joe. please if i made 100k i wouldnt be complaining at all.

"wakeupBOOM:

Start attacking Joe Wurzelbacher, I dare you. Let's see if media attacks him... if so, watch the polls narrow."

Dude, calm the f^ck down. People's problems are bigger than "Joe the Plumber" McCain looked like a joke mentioning "Joe the Plumber" every five seconds. The CNN focus group showed that everytime McCain mentioned "Joe the Plumber" his numbers went... "in the toilet."

And who the hell is insulting "Joe the Plumber?" No one is. People are making fun of McCain for mentioning him on every single question. I'm surprised he didn't say "Senator Obama wants to force abortion on good people like JOE THE PLUMBER." No one is attacking Joe. So just calm the hell down, dude.

"Bigmike:

My parting thought.

GOD DAMN BARACK OBAMA"

You are such a class act. In the words of your vice president... GO **** YOURSELF, Mike.

hey wakeup, you said:

"It has started... the liberals are attacking Joe Wurzelbacher. Watch the polls narrow."

don't be surprised if you find out that joe is woting for barack. it could happen... especially if he's... AWAKE!!! ;~)

doug s.

i love how hannity honestl believes that mccain won the debate even though frank luntz focus has obama winning.

Did anyone truly expect the liberal media to claim that McCain had won the debate? They could print the results before the discussion began. It is ashame that the NY Times, CNN, and MSNBC act as a liberal lapdog as opposed to a US watchdog. I was glad to hear Obama's explanation of his relationship with Ayers, and ACORN. I actually feel more comfortable with that response on the books.

However, I still feel uncomfortable with the fact that he has attended a church which preaches hate. The argument that he doesn't necessarily believe the crap Wright is preaching is absurd, like a Seattle Art Institute student that doesn't study art or design, for example. Why would he be there otherwise?

With all due respect!

I can not wait to send out the e-mail entitled "embeded with the enemy; lefties launch their attack on Joe the plumber"

everybody-
This is a sentence from wakeup.

"Those quick online polls are rediculous."

Who on this forum that you know misspells the word "ridiculous" like that?

My apologies to all.

I was making a point, and could have found a classier way to do so. I should be above Obama's spiritual advisor.

Goodnight.

Ironic that a man named wakeup would be defending someone making a quarter million a year, consider that 95% of Americans make less than that, what if THEY wake up, dummy?

just saw luntz focus group of 'undecideds'

'i thought obama won the debate, but i dont trust him and id never vote for him' wtf!

not much of an undecided then!

GOD DAMN BARACK OBAMA.

That is a very offensive statement. obama will be proud of this country for the second time in his life if he wins the presidency.

Obama is not attacking 95% of Americans just rich people like joe the plumber.

Luntz group had 4 raise hands for Obama... and yes I can not spell, I keep a dictionary next to my key board. But I can spell Joe Wurzelbacher.

carl29,

i agree mccain doesn't make things clear. ;~) but, what he was trying to say, is that *IF* joe buys his boss's plumbing biz, then he *WILL* be making over $250k/year. so, his taxes may go up under barack's plan - from 36% to 39%, but, the taxes would be on his *NET* income, *AFTER* expenses... if his net income isn't >$250k, then he will either see no cahnge in his taxes, or he will see them reduced under barack's proposed tax plan.

doug s.

ps - john mccain's statement that usa crporations pay the 2nd highest tax rate in the world - 34% - is a misnomer. barack countered this claim in debate #2; he should have done so again - more than half of usa companies pay zero taxes, after loopholes, etc. - that's right - *ZERO*. 94% of companies average paying 6% in taxes.

Bigmike-
We forgive you. Say five Hail Marys and ten Our Fathers.

@wakeup

Do you even know who David Gergen is?

He was involved in the Republican machine since Nixon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Gergen

If you are going to state something it helps to have the facts BEFORE you run off at the mouth. Gergen is possibly the most independent voice on TV and when he speaks it is usually because it is true. There is a lesson in there somewhere, maybe you should start taking notes.

I want to go to sleep but I can not believe my eyes. You are dragging Joe though the mud. Attacking Plin is one thing... attacking Joe, well, watch the polls narrow. How many NYT reporters will it take to tear joe down?

my personal opinion is that it was a tie mccain did better then he did in the past and obama did good so in the end obama probably wins in the long term because as far as i could see this was no game changer.

Dwarf,
I know exactly who Gergen is. No need to go to wikipedia to find out. The man is a whore.

marctx,

Who will be impacted by a tax hike on the 5% wealthiest? I wonder whether or not it will have an impact on consumers. Will businesses merely hand over $$ to the government, or do you feel that they may lay off more employees, and/or increase the cost of goods and services?

"marctx:
GOD DAMN BARACK OBAMA.

That is a very offensive statement. obama will be proud of this country for the second time in his life if he wins the presidency.

Obama is not attacking 95% of Americans just rich people like joe the plumber."

Another class act. GO **** YOURSELF!

half of the top 5% are business. $3K tax credit for new hires is a sham... it costs 12K to hire one employee at 40K a year. Smoke and mirrors from the Candyman.

from washington post factcheck:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/

taxes:
"John McCain made two assertions on corporate taxes, one that small businesses pay 50 percent of the taxes and the other that U.S. corporations are among the highest taxed in the world. Both are wrong.

All corporate income taxes--including giant corporations and the smallest of businesses--account for only about 14 percent of federal revenues raised in the year, according to the Congressional Budget Office. Most federal taxes are paid by individuals, while fees and other taxes make up the rest.

While the official corporate tax is high, compared to other countries, there are so many loopholes in the code that many companies pay little or no taxes. The General Accounting Office reported recently that more than half of U.S. corporations paid no federal income taxes during the boom years of the late 1990s, and those that did were able to shelter much of their income, generally by claiming deductions and credits.

The GAO report showed that 61 percent of U.S. corporations paid no federal income taxes from 1996 through 2000, a period of rapid economic growth and rising corporate profits.

An estimated 94 percent of U.S. corporations reported tax liabilities amounting to less than 5 percent of their total income in 2000. Indeed, small corporations were more likely to avoid taxation than large ones, the GAO said."

and "joe the plumber":
"McCain was wrong to state that small businessman "Joe the Plumber" would end up paying a fine if he refused to provide his workers with health insurance. Under the Obama plan, small businesses are specifically exempted from a requirement imposed on large companies that they contribute to a national health fund if they fail to make "a meaningful contribution" to their employees' health care costs."

doug s.

scooter-
The economy was good in the Clinton years. That is the approximate tax rate Obama is proposing. No reason to shout the sky is falling!

Obama actually has an excellent answer to Joe the Plumber's problem, which goes back to the original exchange.

Basically, his point is that increasing the tax rate on the highest-income people to give larger tax breaks to the middle class would over time actually help more people like Joe get to the point where they are entering the highest-income brackets. And for that matter, those higher middle class tax breaks will help Joe's business even once he is in the highest-income brackets, because those middle class people are his customers.

So none of this is an attack on Joe the Plumber. Rather, it is pointing out that in the end we will have more people in Joe's position, and people in Joe's position will be better off, if our economy starts working better for the middle class.

scooter:

"marctx,Who will be impacted by a tax hike on the 5% wealthiest?"

Duh. They will layoff employees and pull out investments and crash the market.

doug s.,

Totally agree. People don't realize all the loopholes in the taxcode that private business have.

Going back to McCain and Joe the plumber. Do you think that poor Joe the plumber who makes more than 1/4M a year is the best example of who will benefit from a McCain administration? I mean, politically. At this very moment McCain shouldn't be taking about those who make $250,000 and up but about those who make between $25,000 and $100,000, the more average "Joe" or "Jane."

@wakeup

No one reads your conservative blogs so we are not in on your humor, which I doubt would be amusing even if I were in on it. There is a reason that educated people tend to be liberal. It's because they're educated and they understand issues and problems in a larger context than their wallets.

doug,
Obama told Joe to his face that he would raise his taxes in order to spread the wealth. It was caught on video. Joe Wurzelbacher saved the election for McCain. Watch the media attack Joe, watch the polls narrow.

wakeup: "Plin is one thing"

boom, was that an oblique Nabokov reference? Have you read Pnin? We ought to compare notes.

zotz, great call on boomshack. i almost missed that rediculous statement. my hat is off to you, sir!

1Angry, nice try to sneak reason into discussion with wakeup. the dude wants red meat, not Gergen-like reasoned rationale. i wonder whom he'd prefer. what's david duke doing these days?

"wakeup:
I want to go to sleep but I can not believe my eyes. You are dragging Joe though the mud. Attacking Plin is one thing... attacking Joe, well, watch the polls narrow. How many NYT reporters will it take to tear joe down?"

Tell me WHO, the ****, is dragging Joe though the mud? The American people have a lot bigger problems than worrying about Joe the Plumber. Your problems are obviously mental.

NO ONE is attacking "Joe" We're making fun of McCain for making "Joe" the cornerstone of his economic policy. After 8 years of economic HELL that Bush has put us through, it's laughable to the American people that all McCain has to talk about is Ayers and Joe the Plumber.

You are a real asshole, boom****sleepyhead.

@scooter

they had tax cuts for 8 years and they still laid off employees. tax cuts do nto stop jobs from being lost. if this were true we wouldnot have 6.1 unemployment rate. the bottom line is this companies decide what they want to do on how much money they wish to make. if cuting jobs will maximize their profits they will with or without tax cuts. companies do what they have to do period.

@wakeup

God I wish I could just make **** up and believe it. How do you do that? Drugs?

Oh wait you are an Internet troll no need to do anything but be a moron. My bad continue on.

Sample of independent voters gave the debate win to Obama:

Obama 60 McCain 30.

[url]http://mediacurves.com/[/url]

Listening to Republicans defend McCain or attack Obama sounds like they are grasping at straws.

Now that the debates are over and Obama clearly won, the only thing that could prevent an Obama win is some kind of late October surprise, or the dreaded Bradley effect on election day.

Lech

DTM,
It is attack on Joe the Plumber trying to earn the American dream. The man does not want a bigger house, he wants a bigger business that would employ more people. No No No Obama said wait a minute Joe... I, not you, want to be the one to spread the wealth around.

@marctx,

What about Japanese corporations whose executives take pay-cuts before they fire their workers. What about European workers who are given ample wages, vacation time, sick leave, health benefits...why are those economic structures more secure than ours? Why haven't their economic systems collapsed? And why, after we have been giving tax cuts and every break conceivable to corporations have American companies singlehandedly brought the global economy into a recession?

Simple answer: When things are going well, the rich enrich themselves and everyone else gets the leftovers. Corporations also rarely think about their long-term security and seek to make profits in the short-term, such as bending their lending rules when the housing market was booming! Market socialism brings stability because it puts oversight, checks and balances on these wealthy companies. It's a proven system, one that the U.S. should have adopted years ago!

marctx, were you born stupid, or did you study? if the wealthiest 5% experience a tax hike, what is being taxed, is their NET PROFITS, not their expenses. what would be their motivation to lay off folks, pull out inwestments, etc? so they can have less net profits, so they will fall into a lower tax bracket?

geez, i guess if they're *REALLY* smart, they can figure out how to reduce their net incomes to as little as $30k a year - that way they won't have to pay *ANY* taxes at all - doncha think?

doug s.

NO ONE IS ATTACKING JOE THE PLUMBER!

SHUT THE **** UP BOOM****/FALLENASLEEP!

At times like this after basking in the glow of an Obama victory, I like to sit back and reflect for a moment.

I put a simple question to you my friends, what would someone posting at Redstate say?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Wow is there ONE poll showing McCain winning not on Drudge? He can't even win the FOX quick poll or the FOX Ind group! LOL
I love it!

"OneAngryDwarf:
At times like this after basking in the glow of an Obama victory, I like to sit back and reflect for a moment.

I put a simple question to you my friends, what would someone posting at Redstate say?"

They would probably say something similar to boom****/fallenasleep.

Joe is middle America... McCain did not create Joe, Obama knocked on his door, and unlike the media Joe asked Obama some solid questions and Obama answered... time to spread the wealth (you must pay welfare to those I tell you to)
Defending Gergen must stop, he performs for his employer.

Obama just makes McCain look soooo angry. It's like McCain's the little man... Obama's DEFINITELY the alpha male in a very subtle way. The psychology of all of this is fascinating.

carl29,

mccain thinks folks are so stupid that they won't realize that "joe the plumber" may have his taxes increased if he *NETS* over 1/4 million dollars a year. "joe the plumber" has such a working class ring to it, doncha know? ;~)

doug s.

NO ONE IS ****ING ATTACKING JOE YOU ****ING IDIOT!

I am off to sleep with visions of Joe Wurzelbacher campaigning with Palin in Ohio.

wakeup can you go away? I'm so sick of you ****ing MORONS claiming your party has the "better" way. Americans were conned into voting for that DIP**** Bush and look what we got. Record deficit, a country split at the core, a world that disapproves of us like never before, an ill-advised war. THE GOP IS FINISHED. GOOD BYE. Come back when you have reasonable leaders.

You can tell that McCain likes Obama and it's killing him. I'm not blind. I can see that McCain loathes the cut-throat tactics that have been put on him, but in the end he decided to sell himself out for the hope of being President. I think if McCain were younger he would have run a squeaky clean campaign and set himself up for a run later on. Unfortunately, the man is completely out of time and he will do anything to get elected. I'm just thankful that it doesn't appear that he will pull it off. Part of me does feel sorry for the old guy though, but then I remember all those vile attack ads he's been running and then I don't feel so bad...

McCain had better get ready to shill for downticket Republicans after tonight. His fate is sealed and if he isn't careful those downticket races are going to lead to a serious Democratic mandate in the House and Senate.

Repubs think that an Obama WH is bad, wait till they get a taste of a fillibuster free Congress.

McCain's campaign is circling the bowl and I hope that he brings his little hate show to every close House and Senate race in America.

NW,
You are afraid of Sarah Palin and Joe Wurzelbacher.

Maybe Obama can invite McCain to a high level meeting so he still feels important when he's president.

"wakeup:
I am off to sleep with visions of Joe Wurzelbacher campaigning with Palin in Ohio."

I'm off to sleep with visions of you and your boom**** persona getting banned... but then we wouldn't be able to rub it in your face when "MUH-KANE (doesn't) CLOSE THE GAP TO MOE BY SUNDEE"

"wakeup:
NW,
You are afraid of Sarah Palin and Joe Wurzelbacher."

You're afraid of facts and reality. Because, as we all know, facts and reality have a well known liberal bias.

Wakeup SARAH PALIN is a joke to me. She's brainless. She thinks dinosaurs graced the earth 6000 years ago. She makes women pay for their own RAPE kits. Women HATE HER DUDE. See polls! Buh bye GOP!

The American Dream vs. Obama, Reid, & Pelosi.
Good night all.

"NW Patrick:
Wakeup SARAH PALIN is a joke to me. She's brainless. She thinks dinosaurs graced the earth 6000 years ago. She makes women pay for their own RAPE kits. Women HATE HER DUDE. See polls! Buh bye GOP!"

And McCain's comments about abortion and the "health of the mother" will not do him any favors with undecided women.

Wow so I wonder if the other God's around the planet are ganging up on us now, like that preacher at the McCain rally said.

Does this mean that our God isn't great anymore? Does this mean I should take up Atheism?

Oops, too late.

hey wakeup, it seems *YOU* are the one who really needs to wake up here. you said:
"Obama told Joe to his face that he would raise his taxes in order to spread the wealth. It was caught on video. Joe Wurzelbacher saved the election for McCain. Watch the media attack Joe, watch the polls narrow."

this, in fact, is what happened (from washington post factchecker - http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/ ):
"John McCain raised the story of "Joe the Plumber" who ran into Barack Obama at a political rally in Toledo, Ohio, earlier this week. He depicted the plumber as an average American who will end up paying more taxes under the Obama plan. In fact, the plumber told Obama that he had plans to buy a company that would make more than $250,000 a year. Obama has conceded that his proposal to phase out the Bush tax cuts for high-income groups will lead to higher taxes for people making more than $250,000 a year. Obama told the plumber that he would face an increase in his marginal tax rate from 36 to 39 per cent, but Americans earning less than $250,000 a year would stand to gain under his proposal."

you say joe is middle america?!? if joe is *NETTING* over $250k/year, he's certainly not middle america, even if he is a plumber. you think the media is attacking joe? they might be making fun of mccain for his contorted attempt at making joe's plight that of the middle class, but they sure won't be attacking joe. and no way this will save the election for mccain, or make the polls narrow. only in the wishful thinking (sic?) of your narrow mind, perhaps. as i said before you really need to... ...WAKE up!!! lol!!!

doug s.

"wakeup:
The American Dream vs. Obama, Reid, & Pelosi.
Good night all."

Good night, and go screw yourself.

hey wakeup, it seems *YOU* are the one who really needs to wake up here. you said:
"Obama told Joe to his face that he would raise his taxes in order to spread the wealth. It was caught on video. Joe Wurzelbacher saved the election for McCain. Watch the media attack Joe, watch the polls narrow."

this, in fact, is what happened (from washington post factchecker - http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/ ):
"John McCain raised the story of "Joe the Plumber" who ran into Barack Obama at a political rally in Toledo, Ohio, earlier this week. He depicted the plumber as an average American who will end up paying more taxes under the Obama plan. In fact, the plumber told Obama that he had plans to buy a company that would make more than $250,000 a year. Obama has conceded that his proposal to phase out the Bush tax cuts for high-income groups will lead to higher taxes for people making more than $250,000 a year. Obama told the plumber that he would face an increase in his marginal tax rate from 36 to 39 per cent, but Americans earning less than $250,000 a year would stand to gain under his proposal."

you say joe is middle america?!? if joe is *NETTING* over $250k/year, he's certainly not middle america, even if he is a plumber. you think the media is attacking joe? they might be making fun of mccain for his tortured attempt at making joe's plight that of the middle class, but they sure won't be attacking joe. and no way this will save the election for mccain, or make the polls narrow. only in the wishful thinking (sic?) of your narrow mind, perhaps. as i said before you really need to... ...WAKE up!!! lol!!!

doug s.

@NW Patrick

Yeah that whole Dinosaurs and people walking the earth thing how does that work?

"And then on the seventh day, God created the Remington bolt action rifle, with which to fight the Dinosaurs and the homosexuals."

The premise of the entire "new earth creationist" platform is just out there. How does someone delude themselves so badly that they can't believe in their own fiction book anymore?

@VonnegutIce9,
that's an excellent point about how greed works in American capitalism and large corporations.

My question for boomshack is this: if you are so concerned about letting government spread the wealth for Joe the plumber and healthcare for Americans, why are you not concerned about letting the Corporations do it? Corporate America has proven over the last several years that they cannot be trusted to take care of their worker: massive layoffs, fat paychecks for executives, etc. Everything in corporate Americana is about returning the value to the shareholder, not improving the life of the employee. The employee and his benefits are the first thing on the chopping block.

I would not trust the corporations under McCain's tax plan to trickle the goods down to me. I'd rather get my tax cut directly and have the corporations figure out their own thing, rather than wait for them to be kinder and gentler to me.

Why doesn't McCain believe in the average American here? Don't we know how to spend our money vis-a-vis our tax cut better than some corporation cum benefactor?

Riddle me this, boomman.

Sweet delusional dreams WakeUp, but what about tomorrow when you get up and watch any channel other than FOX and see that Sarah Palin is being censured by the Alaskan government? Gonna huff some fumes from your SUV to console yourself? Do me a favor and fall asleep with your withered genitals near a radiator so we can be assured that WakeUp Jr. only exists in an alternate universe where abortion is illegal and the ignorant are forced to breed.

@carl29 et al,
Chris Matthews/Hardball/MSNBC just polled their group of a dozen or so (Repubs, Dems, Indies) inre Joe the plubmer and nobody, I repeat NOBODY, liked the focus on J, the P. Unanimous agreement - thumbs down, just like we called it.

@VonnegutIce9

Don't believe that someone as delusional as wakeup is anything he pretends to be on the Internet. Dude probably lives alone in a trailor with pictures of Jesus who is going to avenge him in the afterlife.

Feel free to dislike him, but show him some pity because if he really knew anything he wouldn't spend his time trolling around in here.

@wakeup

Again, Obama's actual answer to Joe was that his higher middle class tax cuts will help more people get into Joe's position, and will actually help Joe's business too.

Now I know that it is in McCain's political interests to pretend that Obama is engaged in "class warfare", promoting "socialism", and so forth. But unfortunately for McCain, Obama's pragmatic reasons for favoring higher middle class tax cuts simply don't come across to people as anything of the kind.

You know, I think McCain really does speak quite accurately for Republican conservatives. Those people are always angry. They've always been angry, even after eight years with their hero "W" in charge.

McCain's anger merely reflects his supporters.

Why are Republican conservatives so angry?

Lech

Regarding the poll, which is closer than some of the others: does IBD stand for "It's Boomshak's Data"?

@Lech

My wife and I had a very similar conversation earlier. It just seems to me that they are the party that is trying to prevent change.

I read a doctoral thesis years ago from a sociology student who's hypothesis was that certain sociological conditions, like religion, are part of our cultural evolution. They serve the purpose of slowing down human cultural development and seem to appear more frequently and more energetically during times of turmoil and cultural change.

I would therefore offer you the theory (and it is only a theory) that this is the role that the Republican party is playing in America today. We are shifting from a predominantly white, male majority to a much more pluralistic society. This change scares the heck out of some people and voila you've got a Republican.

Of course I could just be talking out of my ass on this one.

@Lechuguilla

The short answer to your question is that they are Republican conservatives because they are angry.

The slightly longer answer is that starting with Nixon, the Republican Party was consciously designed to appeal to angry white social conservatives, particularly but not exclusively in the South. Up through Bush I, however, these people were basically just being used for votes and little else. With Bush II, however, they started actually taking control of the party, and the Republican primaries this cycle basically became a contest to see who could come across as the angriest white guy. And the McCain you saw tonight was the product of that process.

That's a blend of Second Foundation and Ender's Game, 1Angry. At the time of crisis, the species produces a higher concentrations of genius in order to save the species. And the social inertia drags down rapid progress because those in power are interested in preserving status quo for obvious reasons.

and religion being by its very nature conservative, has been a drag on scientific and cultural development ever since the renaissance. art and science does not progress by coloring within the lines. nature rewards disruptive technologies and revolutionary progress.

mutations get ahead, not conformity. conformity kills mutations, and mutations adapt by trial and error until one of them is able to fool the system and force it to adapt.

and now i am REALLY going to bed.

@MN

Man I knew I liked you for some reason. Have a good night my friend. Sleep well and dream of victory.

I also think OneAngryDwarf is basically correct, but the problem for the Republican Party as it currently stands is that the relevant period of cultural turmoil has largely ended (e.g., the American people have more or less achieved a stable consensus on racial equality, gender equality, abortion, drugs, and are even getting there on gay rights). So the supply of new angry social conservatives is drying up, and the old ones are inevitably going to be replaced in the electorate over time.

"Alankeyes: Obama looks like he's getting whipped...this is definitely a turning point in the election. The best part is when McCain brought up Palin's autistic daughter, only to result in an attack from Obama."

Hah! America saw it completely differently! And BTW McCain doesn't even seem to know that his running-mates SON has Down's Syndrome...not autism!

Excellent responses. Thanks O.A.Dwarf & DTM.

Yeah, it's no coincidence that McCain's strength is in the South and midwest rural areas.

Consistent with your analysis, my hunch is that Republican anger is to some extent positively correlated with what they hear each Sunday morning, every Sunday morning, over and over and over. I could label a church sermon in ways that are not flattering, but I won't. :)

Lech

Personally...let McCain appeal to the "Joe Wurzelbachs", Donald Trumps and all those executives of oil companies and financial houses. Let him get each and every vote of the folks who pull in $250K in personal income annually.

That's okay. Because it won't make a bit of difference.

Lechuguilla,

Your hunch about the correlation is obviously correct, but interestingly I am not so sure which way the causation is going (meaning those churches could be serving the market, not so much creating it). And on that issue, recently young members of those churches have started to vary from their elders in various political and issue polls.

So Joe "The Plumber" Wurzelburg tells Obama he has a big plan to net $250 K/yr before taxes once he gets his company going.

Obama says "Tough luck Joe! Under my plan you'll pay up to 3% more in taxes than you would have had McCain been elected. But at least you'll be sharing the wealth and helping to establish a Workers' Paradise in the USA."

Joe "The Plumber" says "In that case, screw it! I'm only interested if I can make $250K/yr under the present income tax structure, not your proposed one. I quit!"

Obama replies "Take it or leave it, Joe. That's my plan."

McCain hears about all this and says Obama is crushing Joe "The Plumber's" dreams in his misguided attempt to bring Communism to America. If "average" guys like "The Plumber" can't plan to make $250K/yr under the current Bush tax rate, this country is toast!"

Can't we just put Joe on corporate welfare so he pays no taxes at all? Hasn't he earned it? Doesn't he have a right to plan to make whatever he wants without having to worry about poor deadbeats and sick people? Isn't what's good enough for Dick Cheney's friends good enough for Joe?

"Nekrotzar:
Regarding the poll, which is closer than some of the others: does IBD stand for "It's Boomshak's Data"?"

LOL. I was wondering the samething. That would be pretty bad if McCain couldn't even get the lead in a poll conducted by boomshak.

As for IBD, I'm pretty sure it's poll has a republican lean. Not that it matters, Obama's still leading in it. This poll shows way too many undecideds for it being this close to the election, and the IBD website is filled with pro-McCain anti-Obama articles. I'd never even heard of this group until yesterday. 538 gives IBD an even lower weighting than the absurd Battleground tracking poll. So taking all that into consideration, I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock into this polling outfit.

POLITICO POLL: MCCAIN WINS INDEPENDENTS BY 9 AFTER DEBATE

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14618.html

Voters are closely divided over which presidential candidate won the third and final general election presidential debate, according to an exclusive Politico/InsiderAdvantage nationwide survey of undecided debate-watchers.

Forty-nine percent of respondents said that Obama won the debate, compared to 46 who believed his opponent, Sen. John McCain, came out on top. The three-point gap separating the two candidates was equal to the poll’s margin of error.

Five percent said they were unsure which candidate had the better evening.

Perhaps the best news for McCain is the rating he received from independent voters. Among respondents not identified with either major political party, McCain was judged tonight’s winner, 51-42 percent.

Obama’s most important lead may have come among Hispanic voters, who said he bested McCain by a 50-36 percent margin.

The candidates were evenly matched among white voters, with McCain posting a narrow 49-46 percent advantage. African-Americans picked Obama as the winner, 88-10 percent.

The poll was conducted over a 15-minute period following the completion of the presidential debate, testing 715 respondents with a margin of error of plus or minus three percentage points. The sample of uncommitted, likely voters, was selected from a pool of 160,000 voters across the country, and the results were demographically weighted.

“This poll, unlike some others, asked only one question, and that is who won the debate, and then asked the demographic questions in order to process the poll. If we asked any more questions, no one could physically have finished it in time to analyze it in the 11-12 o’clock hour,” said InsiderAdvantage pollster Matt Towery. “We went to extraordinary levels to make sure that everyone taking the poll was truly undecided.”

Asked in advance of the debate which candidate they would vote for if they were forced to choose one now, respondents were evenly divided between Obama and McCain.

Though his edge was a narrow one, the reaction to tonight’s debate, held at Hofstra University in Hempstead, N.Y., represents Obama’s third straight win in post-debate polling. Polls conducted immediately following the previous two presidential debates showed the Illinois senator winning those face-offs.

Polls taken after the first debate by CNN and CBS gave the win to Obama by double-digits. Following the second debate, a CNN survey showed Obama winning among undecided voters, 54-30 percent, and a CBS poll had him winning the exchange, 39-27 percent.

MY REACTION:
I just don't know what to say. McCain just passed on SO MANY opportunities to make Obama look like a fool. i was literally yelling at the TV screen - "John, hit him on the 95% taxcut bullsh*t!", but he wouldn't go there.

God, after 8 years of pussified Republican leadership, it was almost too much to bear.

Grow a f*cking set of balls McCain! This man across from you wants to turn America into a socialist country and you want to be "respectful"? He's hitting you with a rusty pipe while his buddies in the MSM hold you down and you want to fight by Queensbury Rules?

AN ANALYSIS I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH:

The Good Old Days [Mark Steyn]

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NTI2MmVlNzZkMTc0MjcwN2Y2Y2RjZTJlN2MxYWFhYWQ=

One thing I liked about the Bush/Gore debates is that it was obvious both men loathed each other and they didn't care who knew it. That liberated them, for good and ill.

By contrast, for all the characteristically ponderous huffing from Bob Schieffer about "negative campaigns", McCain was never able to cast aside the Senatorial collegiality and really stick it to Obama. Why couldn't he have used the s-word - "socialism"? Why couldn't he have said that his opponent is a perfectly pleasant fellow but he has an all but blank resume so all we have to go on is his votes and his associations and both suggest a doctrinaire liberal well to the left of, say, Bill Clinton? Why couldn't he have pointed out that Barack Obama would be the most left-wing president ever elected in the United States?

McCain lacked the killer instinct. A man who cheerfully crashes planes and survives years of torture appeared nervous that clobbering his opponent might dent his image as Mister Bipartisan. You look at the way he sneered at Romney in the primary debates and compare it with his tentativeness toward Obama. His reluctance to whack the Democrat wound up, by default, elevating Obama. When a veteran Republican who's been on the national scene for a quarter-century and a Democrat whom nobody had heard of 20 minutes ago appear to be equal in stature, then by definition the Democrat wins.

And that, Kathryn, explains those insta-polls. McCain has no one to blame but himself.

All the evidence is that persuadable voters have hated it whenever McCain or Palin have gone on the attack. So what does the Republican "base" conclude? They aren't attacking enough!

Of course the Republican "base" will never admit it to themselves, but one of the chief reasons McCain is losing is that he has played far too much, not too little, to their political preferences. In short, unrelenting anger and contempt sells with the audience for the likes of Hewitt, Coulter, and Limbaugh, but it loses elections.

IBD/TIPP is a biased garbage poll. The internals are crap... then add in the kind of borderline push polling garbage questions asked: Is there such a thing as "black anger"?

A headline on their website: Are We Ready for Socialism?

Pure garbage.