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US: Obama 47, McCain 40 (IBD/TIPP-10/13-17)

Topics: PHome

Investor's Business Daily(IBD)/TechnoMetrica Institute of Policy and Politics (TIPP)
10/13-17/08**
Mode: Live Telephone Interviews

National
Obama 47, McCain 40

**Today's results appear on the TIPP website, but not the IBD site. We are assuming that the survey dates increment up by one from yesterday's release, which nvolved interviews with 872 likely voters and a margin of error of +/- 3.5%

 

Comments
Ryguy:

sounds about right

____________________

JFactor:

I was wondering why this reputable pollster showed such a small lead for Obama. Well, now we know that it was too small and this is probably a good depiction of reality.
___________________________________________
http://www.internationalpoliticstoday.com

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JFactor:

I must add that the number of undecideds is crazy.

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boomshak:

Strange how this poll is moving in the opposite direction of every other tracking poll (nutty DailyKos included).

In last 3 days, DailyKos has dropped 6 points, GW/BG has dropped 9 points, Gallup has dropped 5 points. But TIPP has added 4 points.

They don't let you see their weightings unless you are a premium member (which sucks, I mean, with 10 different polls out there, why the hell would someoone pay $99 just to see these guy's internals?)

Who knows, they will all consolidate the week before the election when being "right" actually counts.

____________________

faithhopelove:

UPCOMING ON THE TRAIL
(updated)

Yesterday:
Obama in VA
Biden in NM & NV
Jill Biden in MO
Hillary in OH
McCain in FL
Palin in OH & IN

Today:
Obama in MO
Biden in CA
Jill Biden in MO
McCain in NC & VA
Palin in PA
Cindy McCain in PA

Sunday:
Obama in NC
Biden in WA
Jill Biden in MO
Bill Clinton in NV
McCain in OH
Palin in NM
Cindy McCain in PA

Monday:
Obama in FL
Biden in CO
Hillary in FL
Bill Clinton in NV
McCain in MO
Palin in CO
Cindy McCain in PA

Tuesday:
Obama in FL
Biden in CO
Hillary in MN
Michelle Obama in FL
McCain in PA
Palin in NV

Wednesday:
Biden in CO
Kerry in IA
Michelle Obama in FL
McCain in NH
Palin in MO(?)

Thursday:
Obama in WI

Friday:
McCain in CO

November 1:
Palin in NC(?)

Analysis:

1) Obama is taking no state for granted.

2) McCain has all but conceded IA, MN, and WI; but he stubbornly clings to the hope that he can flip PA and/or NH.

____________________

sunnymi:


On this Poll when they showed a 3 point lead for Obama, both he and McCain were tied (38-38) among Independents and got pretty much the same amount of support from their respective parties (87 for McCain and 85 for Obama)....From those results I was thinking they were using a D+3 Party ID.

____________________

cinnamonape:

So it went from 45% 43% 12% on day one (before the debate) to 47% 40% 13%. +5 gain for Obama from that earlier "tight" figure that was once hailed by Boom.

Now the figures are mo0re in line with the results of most other pollsters...and he's discounting their accuracy. Poor Boom!

____________________

straight talk:

I am an independent who voted for repubs the last few yrs. I am now an Obama supporter. I think these national polls show that obama is around 5 nationally. I want to see what state polls do next week. Because I think McCain has big problems if a 100,000 people show up to hear OBama in MO. That means that his people are excited. And they are ready to hit the polls. McCain better find a way to start talking to swing voters like myself, because he is allowing the Obama Campain to paint him as a right wing nut! Who uses the word Socialist, but Right wingers!

____________________

jonny87:

the numbers in PA must be way off if mcccains prepared to spend so much time there

____________________

jonny87:

the numbers in PA must be way off if mcccains prepared to spend so much time there

____________________

cjk002:

@JFactor:

Maybe they count those who are "leaners" (those who are leaning towards a candidate but haven't decided yet or aren't firm in their decision) as undecided.

____________________

jonny87:

excuse double post

____________________

deeznutsrepubs:

Do you know what "noise" is, boomshat? Do you really understand "moe"? How about "random walk"?


Maybe you should fully research those terms and then think about your post.


No matter what happens, mccain will lose. All that is left is whether he retains his honor. the way it is going, he might lose it all before next week.

The real race is whether the dems can get to 60 or 61 in the Senate. And then finally kick that POS Lieberman out on his ass.


____________________

faithhopelove:

SWING STATE NEWSPAPER ENDORSEMENTS

CO:
McCain 3
Obama 5

FL:
McCain 1
Obama 1

GA:
McCain 0
Obama 1

IA:
McCain 0
Obama 1

ME:
McCain 0
Obama 2

MI:
McCain 0
Obama 1

MO:
McCain 0
Obama 2

NH:
McCain 2
Obama 0

NM:
McCain 0
Obama 2

NC:
McCain 0
Obama 1

OH:
McCain 1
Obama 4

PA:
McCain 0
Obama 3

VA:
McCain 0
Obama 1

WV:
McCain 1
Obama 1

WI:
McCain 0
Obama 2

See:
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003875230

____________________

bpd1069:

@faithopelove

#3 - Widespread vote rigging is in place for the PA election.

____________________

Pat:

@jonny87,

After pulling out of MI, and not much activitiy in WI, McCain can not possibly pull out of PA or give the appearance that he is not competing there. The PR would be horrible for him. He has to pretend that he is competitive in some blue states.

____________________

straight talk:

McCain is toast! Did I just notice that for the next two wks! McCain is not going back to FLorida! While OBama and Hillary and Michelle are blitzing the State! He must know that Florida is going Blue this Yr.

____________________

deeznutsrepubs:

Bow in the presence of greatness, rethugs:


http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/18/12630/064/131/634471

____________________

faithhopelove:

The 1 EV that McCain hoped to swing in ME appears to be out of play. Here's the info on a just-released Research 2000 poll:

Research 2000 for Daily KOs. 10/14-15. Likely voters. MoE 4% (9/8-10 results)

Overall

McCain (R) 38
Obama (D) 53

1st CD

McCain (R) 35
Obama (D) 58

2nd CD

McCain (R) 41
Obama (D) 52

See:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/18/18151/842/411/633190

____________________

SoloBJ:

No events for Obama/Biden in PA? I know they have a sizable lead there but I'd like to see them make another trip or two there to maintain that lead.

____________________

Viperlord:

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/todays-polls-1018.html No need to panic people it's just the GOP solidifying behind McSame.

____________________

faithhopelove:

McCain continues to waste time in PA through next week. Today's PA tracker has Obama up 13 points there. 24 consecutive PA polls have shown Obama ahead; the last 11 have given Obama double-digit leads. Obama is now outspending McCain on advertising in the state.

McCain simply has a stupid electoral strategy. He may still manage to win the election narrowly, but it won't be because of this strategy. With only 2 weeks and 2 days to go, he and Palin should be campaigning exclusively in Bush states other than IA and NM--FL, NC, VA, OH, IN, MO, CO, and NV. Starting tomorrow, he could spend 2 full days in each of these states. His 2 days of campaigning next week in PA and NH would be better spent in 1 or 2 of these Bush states. He could still eke out victories in all of them.

____________________

straight talk:

McCain is not closing! I believe that McCain is a Dead Man walking at the polls! He is now running as a conservative for his base. Terrible Idea! And please give up PA already! OBama is winning blue collar votes with the help of Biden and Hillary!

____________________

jonny87:

straight talk,

what makes you think he aint there for 2 weeks?

____________________

straight talk:

McCain will lose NV, NM, Colorado, Florida, Missouri, Virgina,Nc! Mark it down! He will lose these states! This election is not going to be close! Because little has change nationally! Just follow the polls from the previous 04 election! Bush did not trail or even come close to losing alot of these states! Repubs can talk about Gallups new lv model, but Gallups Rv model still has Obama by 8%. Only thing left to do now is vote!

____________________

jonny87:

Pat,

PA is the state mccains competing hardest in, why? most days has either him, his wife or palin in.

your right, pulling out michigan style would be horrendous. but if mccains really double digits down im not sure how wise it would be to have him constantly going there purely to keep up morale.

____________________

cinnamonape:

Cindy "Scrooge McDuck" McCain is practically living in PA....does she have a home there, too?

And I think that the reason that McCain is so infatuated with PA is that he thinks that it stands for PAnama. Home State Advantage, and such.


____________________

cinnamonape:

McCain attracted 7000 people to his Rally today in Virginia (wasn't this a Red State?)...Obama drew 100,000 in St. Louis!

____________________

straight talk:

Johnny87,

The question is why is he not blitzing that state like the dems? I new that Mit Romney should have been the party's nominee! This is a disgrace to repubs everywhere! Having to use talking points to convince themselves that McCain has a real shot! And Palin was a horrible choice! She is too for to the right to ever win independents and swing voters! This is why i am now going with Obama! He is Pragmatic not undisciplined like McCain!

____________________

jonny87:

obama better win...so everyone can find out about mccains (probably) crazy strategy.

____________________

faithhopelove:

EVIDENCE THAT VA WILL FLIP FOR OBAMA
(updated)

1) A new poll of a bellwether VA county finds it swinging Obama's way: "Sen. Barack Obama holds leads in four key counties that will go a long way toward determining the eventual winner in four important swing states — Missouri, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Virginia — according to a new Politico/Insider Advantage survey. Obama bests McCain 50 percent to 42 percent in Prince William County, a Washington, D.C. suburb that voted for George W. Bush in both 2000 and 2004. Between 1976 and 2004, Prince William County supported Republican presidential candidates by an average margin of 18 points."

2) The 3 most recent VA polls have shown Obama's lead there to range from 6.4% to 10%.

3) 8 consecutive polls of VA (from 7 different pollsters) have shown Obama ahead there. In all 8 of these polls, Obama has hit 50% or better; 10 of the last 11 VA polls have shown Obama at 50% or better.

4) 14 of the last 18 polls of VA have shown Obama ahead there.

5) The latest VA polls show very little room for movement in VA, with both candidates having solidified their bases, and with independents evenly split.

6) Right-leaning Rasmussen's most recent VA poll finds Obama with a "very favorable" score that is 11% higher than McCain's--an enthusiasm gap that suggests Obama's likely voters are even more likely than McCain's likely voters.

7) Before the VA primary, pollsters tended to under-estimate Obama's margin of victory there; Rasmussen, whose most recent poll of VA shows Obama up 3, under-estimated Obama's margin of victory by 11 points.

8) Most if not all VA polls have not included cell-only voters, who are disproportionately young and for Obama; multiple studies have found that this omission leads to an under-estimation of Obama's support by 2-3%. VA has the 3rd-largest cell-only population in the country; see:
/blogs/cell_phone_only_households_by.html

9) According to MSNBC, "[s]ince January, Virginia, a swing state this cycle, has experienced a net gain of 436,000 new voters, including what they call an 'onslaught' of new voters in the last week of registration. Nearly 40 percent of the newly registered voters across the state are under the age of 25. Trends show that, regardless of age, females represent the majority of new registered voters." These trends (more youth, more women) favor Obama.

10) Obama is outspending McCain on advertising in VA by more than 5 to 1; see:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/15/143149/87/186/631381

11) Obama has the backing of 4 of 6 living VA governors, including a Republican former governor and the current governor; he also has the support of one of VA's current senators. Former governor Mark Warner, who is crushing his Republican competition in his senate race (and who was the keynote speaker at the Democratic National Convention), may have reverse coattails.

12) Libertarian candidate Bob Barr, a southerner and former Republican, has targeted VA, visiting the state frequently; he will take some votes from McCain.

13) Obama has the superior ground game in VA, with over 60 field offices; McCain has about 20.

14) Obama leads in VA newspaper endorsements 1 to 0.

15) Obama has visited the state more frequently than McCain.

16) The McCain camp's VA-specific gaffes are mounting, with McCain's brother recently calling northern VA communist, and a top McCain spokesperson saying today (10/18) that northern VA is not "real VA."

____________________

zotz:

jonny87-
McCain and Palin are bad campaigners. They focus on one topic hoping that it will work and then they get bored and try something else. Now McCain is trying to terrorize us with Obama's so-called socialist agenda. He is talking like this is the cold war. He is stuck in the year 1980.

Now Palin, McCain, and thev surrogates are trying to push this pro-American vs. anti-American theme. One of them even said that northern VA wasn't the "real" Virginia. This may appeal to the Kiptins and boomshaks but not to undecideds. It just seems hysterical to most people I believe.

____________________

faithhopelove:

EVIDENCE THAT CO WILL FLIP FOR OBAMA
(updated)

1) Right-leaning Rasmussen's fresh poll of the state finds Obama extending his lead there to 7 points. Rasmussen's recent CO polls have trended Obama--+1, +6, and +7.

2) Rasmussen's poll indicates that Obama's likely voters are more likely than McCain's--Obama has a "very favorable" rating of 43% in CO, while McCain's rating is just 26%.

3) A new poll of a bellwether CO county finds Obama running ahead of Kerry's pace there: "Among the four counties tested, McCain leads in only one: Jefferson County, Colo., a populous Denver suburb. McCain is ahead there by a margin of 45 percent to 43 percent, with 8 percent undecided. Colorado's Jefferson County supported GOP presidential candidates by an average of almost 18 points between 1976 and 2004. While it hasn't supported a Democrat since 1964, Jeffco has become much more politically marginal in recent years — in 2004, Bush beat Kerry there, 52 percent to 47 percent."

4) 9 consecutive CO polls (conducted by 7 different pollsters) have shown Obama ahead there; McCain has not led in any of the last 11 CO polls.

5) 7 of the last 9 CO polls have shown Obama at 50% or greater there.

6) 18 of the last 20 polls of CO have shown Obama ahead there, with 1 tie and 1 McCain 3-point lead.

7) Most if not all CO polls have not included cell-only voters, who are disproportionately young and for Obama; multiple studies have found that this omission leads to an under-estimation of Obama's support by 2-3%. 10-15% of Coloradans are cell-only persons; see:
/blogs/cell_phone_only_households_by.html

8) New voter registrations have significantly narrowed the gap between Democrats and Republicans in CO.

9) Obama is outspending McCain on advertising in CO; see:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/15/143149/87/186/631381

10) CO has been trending blue: in 2000 Gore lost the state by 9%; in 2004 Kerry lost the state by just 5%, and a Democrat was elected senator; and in 2006 a Democrat was elected governor by a double-digit margin.

11) Libertarian candidate Bob Barr, a former Republican, has targeted CO, visiting the state today (10/17); he will take some votes from McCain.

12) Obama has the superior ground game in CO, with about 50 field offices; McCain has 12.

13) Obama leads in CO newspaper endorsements 5 to 3.

14) Obama held his convention in CO, and Biden visits the state Monday through Wednesday.


____________________

Bigmike:

Three reasons McCain is in PA.

Media market overlap.

He can't look like he is pulling out of yet another state.

Several competitive house races.

____________________

jonny87:

faithhopelove,

CO and VA are hopefully the firewalls

____________________

cinnamonape:

I'm a bit surprised that neither campaign is doing anything in Indiana. What's up with THAT? Also Ohio appears to be a second tier spot, very odd?

And here's another case of a bonehead Republican move...

Michelle Bachman of MN just went out and said that there needed to be a revival of the House UnAmerican Activities Commission to throw liberals out of government jobs.

That went over REALLLLLL WELLLLL!

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/18/2550/3286/381/634245

Her opponent...who was snapping at her high-heeled shoes in that race...but was facing a lot of RNCC money and a dwindling campaign coffer himself....suddenly (in less than 24 hours) received a half-million dollars from tens of thousands of people pissed off with Bachman's lunatic rant.

Guess she should learn to keep her Bush-kissing mouth shut!

____________________

Bigmike:

What is it gonna take to turn the national trend LIGHT blue on here? It is closer than GA, but GA is light red (pink if you prefer).

____________________

orange24:

I think there might be something to the theory that both campaigns are getting a much tighter PA race than what is showing in the mainstream polls. There just has to be a reason McCain is spending so much time and money there. The only other possibility is that he is completely desperate at this point and determined to flip PA. That doesn't really make much sense though. He'd have a much better chance of flipping VA back to red.

____________________

MNlatteliberal:

BigMike, if you flip CA red, the trend will go pink. I guarantee it. :)

@cinnamonape and anyone else:

http://www.censurebachmann.com/

please fill it out, do your good deed for the day. we, the suffering in MN CD6 thank you!
~ Latte

____________________

McShame:

The "real Virginia" story seems to be gaining some steam. If nothing else, I hope this hurts McCain in Virginia.

____________________

Bigmike:

MNlatteliberal

I am only looking for light blue at this time. It would appear to be consistent with the other colorings.

Flipping CA will have to wait until 2012, when we elect Bush III, Jeb.

____________________

MNlatteliberal:

Mike, I am looking forward to chatting with you in 2012 then, that's for sure. IMHO, the Bush Dynasty is DONE. And you can stick a dubya in that.

____________________

zotz:

Bachman was channeling Joe McCarthy by saying that Obama knowing Ayers means he is secretly a terrorist sympathizer. What I find disturbing is how this wingnut got elected in the first place. I thought MN was a liberal state but even in CA we have people like that.
We have Duncan Hunter.

____________________

drinkwine247:

Hey LatteLiberal

I filled out the censure list an hour ago and it was 29,000 now it already over 35,000!!!! She makes Palin look smart.

____________________

jonny87:

cinnamonape,

to win ohio, id guess obama would need to be at least 6 points ahead nationally. pretty tough.

orange24,

mmm. i cant put my finger on PA. but i certainly hope he thinks VA and CO are gone so he has no option but PA.

____________________

kerrchdavis:

@Bigmike & MN

This country would elect a 5'2, 480 pound homosexual cross dresser before they would let any Bush within 50 feet of the white house after the last 8 years.

____________________

Bigmike:

Right you are zotz. We all have our crosses to bear. In my case it is Mark Pryor and Blanche Lincoln. A couple of basket cases.

____________________

boomshak:

BEYOND BELIEF: OBAMA GOES TO DOJ IN ORDER TO BLOCK ANY INVESTIGATION OF ACORN!

I knew that Obama was a Communist-in-training, but I never thought it would go this far.

After distancing himself from ACORN, ludicrously claiming that he never worked for them, Barack Obama has no sought the helpf of the DOJ in order to block any investigation of ACORN'S voter fraud activities by Republicans.

They claim that "ACORN has become a tool of voter supression" by the right.

I'm sorry, but you have GOT to be f*cking kidding me. With state after state showing blatant voter registration malfeasance, the Obama cmapign is claiming that any attempt to investigate or stop it is "voter supression"?

Madness. I hope you moobats are proud.

____________________

Bigmike:

kerrchdavis

Be serious. Barney Frank is no where near that fat. Taller, I think, too, definitly taller.

____________________

OneAngryDwarf:

Bachmann is going DOWN!!!

http://www.actblue.com/entity/fundraisers/18660

I hope that Tinklenberg takes his fresh infusion of 500K and runs that Countdown interview 24/7 from now until the election. That can't be what the voters of MN-06 want in a representative.

This grass roots approach has been very effective for Obama and I hope it starts to work against all of the Christian Dominionists that think people who don't believe as they do are Anti-American.

It amazes me that they go after liberal America, when it was NY and Washington D.C. some of the most liberal areas in the country that bore the brunt of 9/11. They act like only Republicans server in the military and that you have to be average to be a real American.

I'm suprised that more Republicans don't channel Pol Pot and the Killing Fields. That particular revolution seemed to target intellectuals and tried to make sure that everyone was average. We all know how that turned out.

Down with Christian Dominionism, down with anti-intellectualism, down with Michelle Bachmann.

/rant

____________________

kerrchdavis:

@bigmike

lol! can't really defend how he acts though! :D

____________________

Bigmike:

Be real guys. Don't you think Bachmann was playing to a partisan crowd. You guys get riled up over everything.

Not that I give a hoot. I'm a long way from MN, and it is a given that the house will have majority Dems again.

You think that makes you mad, wait until we steal this election too.

____________________

maddiekat:

boom****

Once again you are wrong. They are going to the DOJ because they believe there is an organized attempt by the Mccain camp, the RNC and the Bush Administration to suppress folks from voting. This is against the law even though it is a Republican strategy every four years. Actually make that every two years!

____________________

straight talk:

That what chicago politics! Tuff! OBama outsmarted McCain on this power play to DOJ! THis guy is no Bambi! lol

____________________

kerrchdavis:

It wouldn't be a true American election without Republicans committing voter fraud.

____________________

zotz:

boom-
The corruption of the DOJ is a bigger threat to democracy than ACORN is. Remember, voter suppression in 2000 put Bush in office. See the movie Recount.

____________________

Bigmike:

It wouldn't be a free election without both sides committing fraud. I believe the Dems stole the 1960 election with voter fraud in Chicago. Was that Acorn even back then?

At least we are free to steal an election here and there. Not that I condone it, but it has happened. I bet there is no voter fraud in Moscow.

____________________

joethedummer:

@maddiekat

maddiekat:
boom****

Once again you are wrong. They are going to the DOJ because they believe there is an organized attempt by the Mccain camp, the RNC and the Bush Administration to suppress folks from voting. This is against the law even though it is a Republican strategy every four years. Actually make that every two years!

Why are you trying to talk reality with an obvious racist idiot?

____________________

Bigmike:

zotz

I saw Recount. Came away with one BIG impression. I think it was said by the guy playing Baker.

Bush won EVERY time they counted.

____________________

maddiekat:

joethedummer

Good point!

____________________

Pat:

@MNlatteliberal,

Regarding Bachman, I donated last night and also signed the list. This woman is crazy. I could not beleive my ears yesterday as I watched Hardball.

____________________

zotz:

Bigmike-
I know! Your guys did a great job purging the Dem registration lists. You could say the Reps are masters of the art of voter suppression.

____________________

Pat:

Why is Biden in California? Fundraising?

____________________

saywhat90:

the bottom line is that barack can afford to lose a state or two of the electoral college and mccain cannot lose any toss up. but if you really want to know where the campaign think the race is going look at where they are campaigning and how aggresively they are campaigning.mccain is fighting to keep the bush states that are tossup and barack has just about soldified the kerry state which are all either leaning or solid obama. finally i dont think the national polls any longer the true indicator of who will but that the state polling is. according to rcp the average between kerry bush was 1.5 for bush. but bush still won 286 electoral votes to kerry 252. so basically the polls could tighten to %1 and still give obama a nice lead in the electorate

____________________

Bigmike:

2000 is a boil that just ain't gonna heal on you libs asses. In 20 years we will be on this site and I will mention the 2000 election and you guys will come unglued.

Repubs could have been the same way over the 1960 election. But Nixon conceded rather than sue, for the good of the country. And we put it behind us. That is what LEADERSHIP will do for you. Damn shame you guys didn't have any.

____________________

Bigmike:

saywhat90

As long as Obama stays at or near 50% nationally, he will almost certainly carry at least one of swing or tossup states. Other than that, I agree, it is the state polls that matter.

But until we see Senator tax and redistribute drop a couple of notches nationally, it looks bleak for the home team.

____________________

alankeyesisawesome:

Don't forget, even if Obama does win the election, that doesn't give him the moral victory. If the democrats win it will be because of voter fraud in any instance, because everyone knows that the people support the Republican party, which is the pro-America party.

Country First! McCain/Palin 2008!

____________________

saywhat90:

just got through looking at the number from 2004
funny how similar the numbers in that election only in reverse. bush largest lad was 8 and his smallest was one in the same week. the week of october his highest lead was 6 and his lowest was -2 (kerry led in two polls). bush rco avg wasonly 2 as well. so the race also tigtened in 2004. of course we all know who ended up winning. funny thing too is that the electoral count was alot closer than it is right now and the number were roughly the same.neither candidate has close to what barack has in electoral count bush only had 227 the same day last year. so even though kerry caught up he has a lot less to overcome then mccain does. so even if the polls tighten doesnt mean he gain enough to pass barack in the electoral

____________________

McShame:

Another 75,000+ crowd in KC Obama rally! That's almost 200,000 that have come to see Obama in one day across Missouri.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081019/wl_afp/usvote_081019000536

____________________

zotz:

Bigmike-
Gore conceded and he never brought it up again.
But that doesn't mean we are going to let it happen twice. It's hard to find integrity like Nixon had. When God made him He broke the mold!
LOL!!!

____________________

Bigmike:

McShame

KC and StL are the liberal areas, for sure. I was in rural MO Thur afternoon thru Fri morning. McCain signs 10-1. And I was indeed in Repub areas. Home to the one and only John Ashcroft.

____________________

zotz:

alankeyesisawesome-
"everyone knows that the people support the Republican party, which is the pro-America party."

And what are the Democrats... chopped liver?!?!?

____________________

Bigmike:

zotz

I can't argue with you on Nixon.

Don't know what happened to the poor man between 60 and 72. Alien abduction? Maybe they performed sexual experiments on him, who knows.

Gore concede after the Supremes cut him off at the knees. No comparison to Nixon conceding election night, or early the following morning.

____________________

Bigmike:

alankeyesisawesome

Dipsticks like you don't help the cause.

Libs are well intentioned Americans. We just need to educate them a little.

____________________

saywhat90:

lol my thing is this though. daily tracking poll are all volatile. well okay rasmussen has ben steady, but most have had wilds swings through out the week. one minute barack is up then down the up then down or mccain is gaining or not gaining. so every one begins to hang on every little blip or every poll that gives a glimmer of hope to their side. then the hope fades when it swings back. so we all will know now 4

____________________

Commander_King:

Don't you worry Bigmike.I'm educated.

____________________

MNlatteliberal:

@PAT, 1Angry, drinkwine and all, THANK YOU!!!

Mike she is not playing to her base, her base is nowhere that educated or crazy. And I disagree - Bachmann is SMART and way more dangerous than Palin. Bachmann can think on her feet and twists words around very well. She is an excellent debater.

During the last debate she tried to pin the meltdown on legislated minority borrowers, and went unchallenged. She was on Larry King, and spewed the same BS before Carville rebuffed her. She knows the issue is too complicated to go into in a TV soundbite and she uses that fact to her advantage. She is a tax lawyer and panders to the religious base because that is her most expedient constituency.

I love the fact that El now raised over half a million. I hope he uses it to expose her views on TV.

____________________

MNlatteliberal:

i wonder what it must be like for the boomshacks, wakeups, alankeys of this world to feel crushed by the tide of history? to see the boot of historic inevitability poised above your cockroach selves? you'd think those on the lunatic fringe would try to escape, but no, they try to flap their whiskers hoping to flicker the wheel of history back.

but the wheel, seniores cucarachas, she cannot turn back. she only go forward. and she is in high gear.

____________________

slinky:

I lived in Missouri when I went to school there. Gathering 100,000 people in St. Louis is a remarkable achievement. That achievement must mean that Missouri is leaning in Obama's favor. This is a surprise to me, as I thought that the professional, duplicitous Republicans of Missouri (Kit Bond, John Ashcroft, John Danforth et al.) would brainwash the population in their direction. I'm glad to see it's not happening as much as I thought. We'll see in the end, but even such a large rally in St. Louis is quite an achievement.

____________________

zotz:

I turned on Fox for two minutes and saw Greta Von Pussburn hosting her own hour long attack ad on Obama taking Ayers, Acorn, and Wright and weaving all the diabolical threads together (imagine scary music) in order to reveal the TRUTH about this person that has placed himself at the very cusp of achieving his ambitious plan (whatever that may be!).

____________________

MNlatteliberal:

oh, and can I just say, I LOVE ACORN. I heart them with all my liberal heart. and just to think that I used to not care!

____________________

Chris in NY:

Do you think Powell is going to endorse Obama tommorrow? What is everyone's opinion?

____________________

OneAngryDwarf:

@Chris in NY

That is a fascinating debate isn't it. I know for a fact that Powell has been putting his money into the Republican cause for a long time, but he also just got toasted by Fox Noise last week. I think that the inside money is on him endorsing O.

My money is that he's coming out and supporting Obama, which would eat up at least a news cycle or two for O.

____________________

boskop:

doesnt matter if powell does. it's too late in the campaign and powell is a broken hero.
he has no credibility either as a secretary of state having sold the world a bill of goods at the UN, nor as a commander..

he blew desert storm and blew the iraqi invasion. why do you think he's been in hiding?

____________________

boskop:

but is it possible that this late in the campaign, the parable of the emperor's new clothes reverberates to the ballot box?

how a simple question from a simple 'joe' revealed the naked obama, without script, without prompts, and without prevarication.

why he could call obama's naked modus operandi when all the media could not is the parable of the emperor's new clothes. obama was finally found to be standing naked and completely consistent with his long deep stomp through the muck of the chicago machine and the radical swill he lies about all the time.

____________________

DTM:

I don't know if Powell will formerly endorse Obama, but I suspect it will at least be implied. You never know with Powell, however--there is a nontrivial chance he will come out and endorse McCain.

By the way, I agree things like newspaper and politician endorsements usually don't matter. But I do think prominent Republican newspapers and Republican politicians endorsing Obama help him a little bit--not so much among diehard Republican loyalists, but among independents who tend to lean Republican but may be considering voting for Obama this year. Basically, it just gives them a form of permission to make an exception this year to their normal patterns.

____________________

Pat:

@boskop,

I am sure if he was endorsing McShame, you would call hime the greatest American hero.

The importance of Powell endorsement fits very well into the overall picture that many reputable conservatives have lately endorsed Obama over their own candidate. If it happens tomorrow, it will dominate the news on Monday which will be great for Obama.

____________________

Jeff:

Wasn't TIPP among the most accurate polls in 04? I seem to recall they were off by less than 1% Interestingly, the other poll that was very accurate was Pew. Why is that interesting? Pew & TIPP show the exact same numbers right now.

____________________

JoeThePlumber:

You dems seem worried. Your level of anger (and fear) is so apparent. It appears the huge numbers of newly registerd voters that you are counting on are bogus...Thank you acorn.

2 more weeks of "the common man" on the trail and the drumbeat of SOCIALISM, ACORN and the 3-headed monster (Pelosi, Reid, and Noboma) will bring this to a dead heat. The turnout for McCain will be huge (with truly registered voters)

Pad your rooms on November 4th. HAHAHAHA

____________________

OneAngryDwarf:

@boskop

Do you actually believe what you are saying or do you just make it up as you go?

Powell "blew Desert Storm." What the hell are you talking about, have you ever read a single piece of American history about that war? He said then, and rightly so, that America didn't want to occupy Iraq, we would become bogged down in an extended ground operation that would cost thousands of American lives and Billions of dollars. Bush 41 was smart enough to actually listen to his advisors and stopped the offensive.

Bush 43 on the other hand didn't seem to think that Powell (the only person with experience in the region on his cabinet) knew what he was talking about. So he basically froze him out of the lead up to the second Iraq war because "the shrub" knew he would dissent. They lied to him and threw him under the bus with the U.N. and it is Colin Powell that is without honor?

That just doesn't pass the smell test. Oh and don't bother replying because I already know what stupidity is coming out of your pie hole and I don't really care. Save it for someone who doesn't know any better.

____________________

marctx:

For some that dwell on this ACORN scandal. I spoke with a family member who is the chief deputy county clerk responsible for verifying these ballots in our county. She said most, if not all of these fraudulent registrations will be thrown out. I hope it is the same in others. The problem is much smaller than some might want you to believe.

____________________

boskop:

nope. if powell endorsed mccain it would be nothing. they dont see eye to eye.

powell has lost his mojo. for all those voting already for obama it just means more rah rah, it doesnt bring anyone new over, at least i dont think it will.

too late and he's a wimp.

as far as the tipp goes, i am not one to dispute them as they roll forth each day. three days ago the tipp had it practically even. so it goes.

____________________

Boris_Dieter:

@Boomshak and the rest of the GOP dung fleas:

Please document an actual conviction for any organized effort at voter fraud. Conviction. This baloney over ACORN is just the standard GOP effort to gum up the election process and suppress the "Democrat" vote. Please. Just do tell all of us where we can find the reference to ONE conviction for Democratic vote fraud related to any organized effort. You are, as always, terrified of democracy and liberty unless it means shooting off your guns and ripping people off in the "free" market. You pathetic hypocrites.

____________________

JoeThePlumber:

I'm not doiscounting that they will be thrown out. But the Nobama crowd have been screaming about all of these "new" registrations that will never turn into votes. A huge percentage of the "new" registrations are bogus and should cause dems to pause and think about all of the new voters they are counting on.

____________________

zotz:

boscop-
"a simple question from a simple 'joe' revealed the naked obama"

Please keep your sexual fantasies to yourself!
Pollster.com isn't that kind of forum.

____________________

JoeThePlumber:

I'm not doiscounting that they will be thrown out and truly don't care about a conviction. But the Nobama crowd has been screaming about all of these "new" registrations that will never turn into votes. A huge percentage of the "new" registrations are bogus and should cause dems to pause and think about all of the new voters they are counting on.

____________________

OneAngryDwarf:

@JoeThePlumber

Voter Registrations that get thrown out don't get counted in the "new voter registrations."

Fail...

____________________

OneAngryDwarf:

@joeThePlumber

Voter registrations that are invalid don't get counted in the "new voter registrations."

Fail...

____________________

Boris_Dieter:

@Joetheplumber

You are as ignorant as the real Joetheplumber. "New" registrations as you call them are legitimate, unless they are found to be fraudulent. Obviously false registrations should be thrown out and those guilty of trying to defraud the voter registrar should be prosecuted. If a new registration is cleared and a voter shows up, and he or she is legit, then what's your problem? That it's likely a Democrat voter. Go fondle your guns you ignorant dung fly.

____________________

boskop:

marctx..
actually that is not the case. what no one seems to be addressing is the massive same day registration cum same day absentee vote.

this is the real fraud. and when they track the obama campaign to this then you have trouble.

sadly, dont you think after all these years, that the first black man to become president gets in on cheating? is that fair to all the decent blacks in this country who play it straight?

it invalidates their decency and hope. i think it stinks and the problem was the way they set up the pay structure: commission.

no play no play. that stinks even more. if ACORN were a decent organization that really cared about helping low skilled workers get jobs, maybe they should have hired them straight up without strings attached?

the temptation to pad the rolls to get paid was just too much and it is hardly endemic exclusively to ACORN. If they had assured them of a salary no matter what, then they wouldn't have felt compelled to cheat.

i mean really... so just like i blame the idiots barney frank and dodd for shouting down regulations on fannie mae and the idiots that signed the cruddy loans, i blame the idiots that ran ACORN far more then the little fool who lied to get a decent meal.

maybe that's being unfair to them, maybe i set a lower standard of morality to them... but the larger blame goes to the smart asses who knew damn well what the psychology of lo income
workers was and they abused it.

____________________

JoeThePlumber:

The closer it gets, the more you loons on the left start spewing garbage. It will be a dead heat before the election. It us within the MOE for Gallup and Ras right now. Socialism fails...EVERY time.

BTW, I thought the Republicans were the party of hate and intollerance. From the vitriol and venom spewed by the dems it appears you have taken over that mantra. Congratulations

____________________

Boris_Dieter:

@oneangrydwarf

Don't bother with Joetheplumbercrack; he's an ignorant gun-tot'n Amurikan, and he would arrest all of us in the "Democrat" party and throw us outta the country, since only jerks like him are real Amurikans. He can't figure our that a registration form doesn't equal a voter.

____________________

OneAngryDwarf:

@JoeThePlumber

Best of luck with that line of reasoning. I see very little reason to be cordial to people who are incapable of supporting a single argument they present with facts. Just because CNN and Fox have decided that "Fair and Balanced" means listening to both sides, just because, doesn't mean that I have to.

If you can't present an argument and back it up with FACTS, verifiable and pertinent to the conversation, then you are simply trolling. When Republican's start dealing in reality again, then I would be more than happy to deal with the civily. Since I haven't seen a single instance of that on this forum in at least a month, you sir are out of luck.

BTW nice try to go "Karl Rove" and attack someone for doing exactly what you have been doing. Doesn't work for Karl anymore, doesn't seem to work for you either.

____________________

boskop:

"They lied to him and threw him under the bus with the U.N. and it is Colin Powell that is without honor?

i didnt see any hand cuffs on this coward. he could have stood up or walked out on Bush. but he didnt. instead he perpetrated the biggest international fraud of all time in plain view of the entire world.

stop protecting him. he's a wimp and belongs on the sidelines.

____________________

Boris_Dieter:

@joetheplumbercrack dumkupf

It's over for Pitbull with Lipstick and her running mate. I don't give a fig if the national margin is .00000005. The key state margins are almost ALL widening. Or can't you do the Electoral College arithmetic, you fly-brain. Colorado, Missouri, Nevada, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, Virginia, are all trending Obama/Biden. Do I give a GOP-dumhead's buttcrack whether Tennessee, Utah, Texas, Alabama get redder or even New York and California tighten? I don't really care if Florida goes red. The Alaskan fraud and the Greek tragedy figure McCain are going down like a U-Boot in the North Atlantic. Go back and fondle your wrench.

____________________

JoeThePlumber:

Hey Dumas! You and every loon on the left have been hearing about these huge numbers of registrations for months. When they are actually submitted (and rejected) your numbers will be laughable compared to what you "thought" you had. Acorn was reporting hundreds of thousands of new registrations. A huge percentage will never see the light of day.

____________________

zotz:

The Rep bugs are coming out of the woodwork! They have just watched Greta's slimy Fox "news" program and they want to tell us what they have learned about Obama. If these morons prevail we will continue on the Bush path until the United States is destroyed.

____________________

marctx:

Regarding Powell. I still think Powell is well respected but he waited to long. If he endorsed McCain it is party line, if he endorsed Obama those voters "Murtha" calls racist will see it as just another AA agreeing with the other 99% of AA.

boskop: you must be referring to other states. i was told that i don't need to worry about that here.

____________________

Trosen:

marctx:

"For some that dwell on this ACORN scandal. I spoke with a family member who is the chief deputy county clerk responsible for verifying these ballots in our county. She said most, if not all of these fraudulent registrations will be thrown out. I hope it is the same in others. The problem is much smaller than some might want you to believe."

marctx, thank you for a rational, honest response to the ACORN propaganda. It's nonsense. If Mickey Mouse and Hugh Jass tried to cast a ballot, they'd need ID showing they actually were who they were registered as, and then they'd face federal prosecution for trying to do so.

For anyone that still thinks this is any sort of actual issue ,

READ:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081018/ap_on_el_ge/fraud_or_foolishness

____________________

boskop:

IBD for monday doesnot have this data. their poll is 5 percentage points. either way, mccain lost ground. the most telling part of the poll remains the steady percentage of undecideds.

____________________

MileHigh:

The McCain camp is totally lost. All that matters is FL. Every possibility that lends itself to their "narrow margin" wet dream includes McCain winning FL. Despite that he and Failin seem to be everywhere but in the Sunshine State. It seems that simple, am I missing something?

____________________

JoeThePlumber:

You sound nervous.

SOCIALISM. FAIL

____________________

Boris_Dieter:

@Boskop

Please quit the insult to all of our intelligence. Voter registration fraud is not equal to voter fraud. Once again. Please document a single case of actual VOTER fraud organized by the Democrats or by Obama. You don't deserve civility. You or the idiots who are trying to obscure the fact that the only people who've affected the actual voting are GOP operatives who've perfected the art of gumming up elections so that the Democratic vote is suppressed. So until you provide us with ONE case of an individual or group that has organized VOTER fraud, you ought to work your ignorant effort to blow smoke on this issue somewhere else.

____________________

boskop:

zotz you are such a sleazy bag of crap.

just for once have a discussion with someone who disagrees instead of going bar hopping with your bums.

____________________

boskop:

@boris
did you actually read the post or did you just react to words?
if you register someone to vote without adequatge id on the same day they are allowed to cast an absentee ballot and that ballot is not fully vetted as it will not be because of the limited info required in ohio, then IT IS VOTER FRAUD A***HOLE

____________________

Commander_King:

Democrats attack these trolls! They're making the forums filthy with scum.

____________________

Boris_Dieter:

@Boskop

You are a fraud and you know it. I can always tell what the GOP is up to by what they accuse others of. Go produce some robocalls and quit wasting our time with your faux outrage. The only worthy targets of outrage are the GOP hypocrites who are going to whine about stolen elections (of course, having been the only party that actually did steal one) after November 4. Go hug Joeplumber'scrack.

____________________

JoeThePlumber:

Actually I'm a Software Engineer with a Master's Degree.

Don't be angry. If you do win it will just guarantee another Republicn revolution in two years. Iran will bomb Israel...interest rates will skyrocket, the 3-headed monster will fail miserably and America will right the wrong in 2 years.

America will never accept radical left-wing ideologies and despises socialism by a 5-1 margin.

____________________

abraxaf:

Can a McCain supporter please explain to me, if Obama is a Socialist, then were Eisenhower and Nixon Uber-Socialists? They presided over far, far more progressive tax systems than what Obama is proposing. And if any type of progressive taxation is "socialist," why doesn't McCain simply advocate a flat tax? Or is there just an arbitrary quantitative line somewhere dividing capitalist free-market freedom lovers from SOCIALISTS. What a joke.

____________________

liz from NJ:

everybody is wondering why McCain is wasting time in PA.

I have a theory.

If I were a McCain strategist, I would know darn well that by now there is no time and resource to turn each swing state back to red.

The only thing that will help is some kind of Duex Machina (god's gift, sort of) - like a a war breaking out in Middle East, a major terrorist attack in San Francisco, etc.

Or, at the last minute, somebody digs out a picture of Obama with a sheep, some one even scarier than Ayers, etc. Something even more nefarious than ACORN.

Something that blankets the whole country. Supposed that event lifts his points up by 5-7 in soft blue, former Bush swing states. Even so, he is up to something like 261 or 262. In such a case, they will still need a state that has enough EV among the current light blue states, that can be brought to within 5-7 points. That's PA.

So, the strategy is, "let's be in the best possible position in case God decides to help us. The normal strategy does not work any way. It will be a shame if this amazing thing happened, we are still one state with enough EV short."

What do you think?

____________________

Boris_Dieter:

@boskop

Sorry, oh soooo sorry, and where is the evidence that there were any same day ballots submitted linked to the allegedly fraudulent registration?

As usual, more smoke coming outta your a-hole. Go fondle your gun, you moderately literate jerk.

____________________

zotz:

boskop-
"zotz you are such a sleazy bag of crap."

I try to be polite and this is my reward?
You just can't reason with some people!

____________________

marctx:

Trosen:

As a Hillary turned McCain supporter, I was buying into the ACORN stuff. However, I went right to the source and reassured that registration fraud is different than voter fraud.

Bill Ayers, Wright, and ACORN will not win this election for McCain. I'm hopeful with Joe the plumber. People need to understand taxing businesses equals lower jobs. That is a much better argument.

Boskop: I don't get your angle. You often accuse Obama of wanting three wars. I strongly believe Obama will have no wars. Which to me is a bad thing but to you might be a good thing. I know you are AA, why do you hate Obama so much. We oppose Obama for different reasons.

Spread the wealth Obama is obviously a socialist.

____________________

saywhat90:

did you know my states allows you to register and vote at the same time if you come for early voting. the great red state of nc and no one is complaining about it here

____________________

boskop:

dieter

Surprise, I am a democrat you fool!!!
obama is a derisive mocking ruthless liar.

upi can have him but i do not have to like him nor vote for him and entitled to my opinion.

when he is president, if he is president, his faux 'cool' will reveal itself as the cowardly prevaricator he has always been, one who can never decide yes or no.

do not mistake thoughtful for scared ****less.
do not mistake cool for risk averse.

____________________

JoeThePlumber:

SSHHHHH....

Listen....

I, Joe the Plumber, will be on tour next week. Keep attacking me (it helps legitimize what I have to say)

This just in. People do not like to "Spread the Wealth."

Now, I have to go clean my guns. WOOOHOOOO! Go McCain!

____________________

boskop:

dieter...
are you kidding me? forget it, you're simply not newsworthy enough to talk with.

____________________

Napoleon Complex:

@JoeThePlumber, i.e. boomshak:

You will be very old or dead before another Republican is elected President.

____________________

zotz:

boskop-
I am truely sorry if I offended you.
I used to work with people in your condition and I know it isn't your fault.
Please take care of yourself.

____________________

political_junki:

zotz:
lol. Well put :) People like boskop shouldnt change their medication on their own.

____________________

Boris_Dieter:

@joetheplumber software engineer with MA

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. One great accomplishment of R.Reagan, whom I've lately come to admire, despite the idiots who want to canonize him, was to turn both of the political parties into fairly conservative ones. Only idiots who spend too much time drenching their heads in their respective ideological niches in the blogosphere can believe that the Dems are socialists. It's laughable. The fact is while the GOP opposition will try to prevent any successes by a Democratic administration, Obama will probably govern fairly conservatively. The tax cuts that are likely to expire in 2010, will be recrafted and some folks will have slightly higher taxes. The economic slow down will require a stimulus, and just as the military spending build-up in the Reagan years stimulated a modest economic expansion, Obama will likely try to stimulate it with some modest increases in needed public works and demand augmentation among lower and middle class households, since they are the ones who spend their money in the market place. As for socialism, you are right. Americans, including me, are opposed to it. I am because it doesn't work, and because there is nothing more effective that price signals or profit motive in working the market. Without sound and active government oversight, however, the market will implode, because the big guys always will put their interests above the effective working of the market. Time and again, it's been shown that the most serious enemy of the free market are the plutocrats. Those of us who toil in the competitive market have the forces of the market working to discipline us. The Big Boys though like to rig it. That's what has happened and your party tends to excuse all they do. If socialism ever came to the U.S., it wouldn't be introduced via Democrats, but as a consequence of the greed and over-reaching of the Big Shots of the Investment Class. Sleep easy Mr. Software engineer with the MA, Democrats aren't your problem. Worry more about the hypocrites that defend the plutocrats.

____________________

boskop:

obama is a three wars man. he is rattling his sabre and has been since this whole thing began. mccain has said, back off buddy, we dont do that in afghanistan and pakistan. check your news. check his speeches and his rebuttals.

i dislike obama because he is not the right AA for the job. i do not want to squander the moment to a man who will either be impeached or defile what we have worked so hard for.

he is simply not ready for prime time and i do not owe him my allegiance based on skin color but on resume, character and brains.

he has yet demonstrated brains, prepped up the wazoo for 20 months by a team of 200. he has yet to show us his transcripts, he has yet to demonstrate lucid and succinct off the cuff remarks, he has back pedalled on everything to win votes, he has never shown guts and taken risks, he has hidden, lied, and been handed everything in his public life because he is pretty, and went to harvard.

i am unimpressed with him and have long suggested that he is the dangerous bellicose one of the candidates. his character flaws will push us there.

i might consider voting for him if he did a good job as a senator but he hasnt been on the ground there more than 18 months. who knows what he could have accomplished.

i will vote the man not the party so stop hounding me and insulting me with racist babble that i owe him my frigging vote. ]]]

i give my vote to the candidate not the race.

____________________

boskop:

zotz -

god bless your low IQ. Obama should be proud to have your vote. once again, you have been unable to sustain a conversation and need to resort to typical blog blight. there is nothing unique whatsoever about your "medication' posts. it is simply part of the obama rabble that is de rigeur.

so i bid you a fond good night, and hope that your tiny little world of standard joke-ology leaves you sated and blissfully proud of your might brain.

____________________

zotz:

God save us!

____________________

orange24:

Time for tonights big question. So many Red posters on here tonight, so I'm just wondering, how does all of this translate into an electoral college victory? That never seems to get any kind of response, so I'll start you off and you can chime in where you feel appropriate.

OK, so adding up all the states that Obama has a 5+ point lead in gets him 277 EV. Oops, that's too many already. So, what does McCranky have to do to change the tide? Well, win all 10 swing states and turn one of the blue states red. This in the face of more historic job losses and a yoyo effect on Wall Street. But, oh yeah, you've got Joe the non-Plumber. You know the irony in that one. Joe the non-Plumber would benefit greatly from the Obama tax plan and get next to nothing in the McCain tax plan. Draw your own conclusions on that one. Anyway, discuss... How does McNasty get to 270?

____________________

DTM:

You can make up same-day registration scenarios in which people commit vote fraud, but the problem is that they have nothing to do with what has happened with ACORN. Specifically, ACORN couldn't pay someone to go to the polls on Election Day with a clipboard full of Mickey Mouses and Tony Romos and then vote hundreds of times. You'd have to do something completely different.

____________________

Boris_Dieter:

@boskop

I tend not to have the powers of prediction you apparently have. I was initially a Hillary man. I've admired the Mccain of the past, although I was terrified by the kind of decision making process that produced a Palin for a VP candidate. Please read the transcript of her Hannity interview. It is appalling in its illiteracy and lack of clarity. I have no idea whether Obama will be a historically great figure or a flop or a disgrace. His record thus far has nothing in it to suggest the calamity you outline, but I've tuckered myself out yelling at you guys, and I don't have the strength to rebut your speculation, but speculation it is. I am utterly confident, though, as between the GOP ticket and the Democratic one, that what I see on the record makes me choose Obama/Biden. I don't believe that the Chicago Tribune, LA Times, or a number of the highly respected, usually GOP inclined, newspapers would endorse Obama/Biden if they felt even a little like you or your allies. With that, Ciao Bene Comrades, if I might be able to use that term.

____________________

Bigmike:

I think I will just sit here and watch a while.

Bunch of cranky folks here tohight.

____________________

SoloBJ:

It was stated on CNN and MSNBC that Obama's comment was taken out of context by the McCain camp which becomes obvious when listening to the entire conversation between O and Joe. Further, the analysts said that it is McCain that needs to be careful with this socialist stuff. This is not the 1930s.

They said the fact that he said "yes" to the $700 billion bailout and the fact that you have these CEO's who have gotten paid millions of dollars... McCain may do himself a disservice by trying to make a continuous argument against Obama's comment. In one analyst's words, "McCain needs to be really careful here." Right now he seems to be speaking to his conservative base and that alone will not win him the election.

____________________

Boris_Dieter:

@BigMike

As one of the cranky types, I have to smile. I did get uncorked, but I've been through decades of listening to GOP operatives or others who mistake their prejudices for rigorous thinking. But I get your drift.....and I say, :-)

____________________

Bigmike:

Ok, so much for just watching

Solo

Of course they said that on CNN and MSNBC. That's because they want Obama to win.

Why should McCain give up his best argument? Tax and re-distribute sounds like socialist to me. I bet it does to a lot of folks.

____________________

davidsfr:

The reason why McCain is campaigning in PA so much.

NO.EARLY.VOTING

That's it. He can't fall way behind there while he is trailing in the polls. But he can, and he is, in Virginia, Colorado, and North Carolina, and quite possibly starting tomorrow in Florida.

McCain has to hope the national polls turn dramatically and allow him a chance to pull out states that don't start voting until election day. A very unlikely strategy, but one he must pursue as his only possible course.

____________________

zotz:

Bigmike-
FYI, we have had a progressive income tax since 1913. Was Woodrow Wilson a socialist?

____________________

Boris_Dieter:

Short of a calamity and a total collapse of the get out the vote effort, Palin/McCain are done. Part of the effort is to minimize damage in congressional races, but I think that davidsfr is also correct. It's in Obama's interest to do whatever he can to maximize the Democratic congressional success; he'll need it to overcome the utterly bitter effort of the GOP to torpedo every that is done in Congress. Their strategy will be to paralyze the Obama administration, and the only way to prevent that from happening is with a Democratic majority. That's wby there is all that socialism bunk being spread. Even though both parties in the U.S. are neck deep in capitalism, the GOP wants to convince Americans that down-ticket voting for the GOP will prevent a massive theft of income on behalf of a socialist, redistributive agenda. So, let's get some rest and spend less time here and more time helping the Dems win a solid, filibuster-proof majority in the Senate.

____________________

Bigmike:

zotz

Wilson was before my time. All I remember about him is the league of nations and he could write Latin with one hand and Greek with the other, at the same time.

Is a progressive income tax socialist? To a degree, yes.

I know you libs like to paint us as hard hearted, uncaring. I really don't mind paying in more because I am successful. It is a question of how much more and what the govt spends it on.

If I pay more for roads and bridges than Joe the plumber does, OK. I can afford it.

But RE-DISTRIBUTE the wealth is a step beyond a progressive income tax. A really big step. It is not just me paying more for a road than someone else does. Now I get to buy the other guy a car too.

____________________

Boris_Dieter:

@zotz

Well you're a little right. The income tax when started was tiny. It's hard to label it as "progressive." But the key thing is that both the Republican and Democratic parties are committed to capitalism. I happen to be pleased with that. The GOP, though, unlike Teddy Roosevelt, seems generally unable to see that the major threat to capitalism in the U.S.comes from big business and fat cats who try to get bigger and fatter not by being effective in the market, but by pushing their political weight around. The only way to check that is with effective, strong, active government that has as a central mission the maintenance of a free market. The only way a government can be checked from being corrupted is by a vigilant, active citizenry and an occasional swinging back and forth between the parties as the complacent, corrupted one is replaced by the loyal opposition. In time, Democrats, if they achieve power, will over-reach, and they will then be replaced. It's a wondrous cycle.

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SoloBJ:

BigMike,

Time will tell how it all pans out, right? I agree that O's```` comment was taken out of context. I initially thought "he said what?" when I saw a headline about the comment but after listening to the exchange between O and Joe, I can see how the "he's a socialist" bit is misleading. It was said that it lends itself to "desperation by the Mccain camp" from one political analyst.

With regard to the networks, I find FOX to be totally in the tank for McCain/Palin, MSNBC leans towards Obama when watching Chris Mathew, Rachel M, and Keith O. With CNN, they seem to be more in the middle imo.

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Bigmike:

Solo

Not too long ago ALL the networks were openly liberal. Then Fox came along and kicked their butts in ratings, and therefore in ad dollars.

CNN moved somewhat to the middle. They had to or they would have died.

The others I honestly don't know about. I rarely watch any TV news, Fox included. As far as I know, ABC, CBS, and NBC are still in far left La-la land.

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Boris_Dieter:

@BigMike

Redistribution, whatever that means can only be justified if it has the consent of those who pay for it, or at least some kind of majority.

Redistribution up to a point takes place when you pay taxes for that help school districts with a very low tax base and poor students have a decent level of education or when you help to pay for those who can't get medical care except in emergency rooms. After all, the emergency room deficits are paid by all the "paying customers."

Too much inequality is not a great thing in a society, and can lead to many greater problems than the cost of dealing with poverty or inadequate incomes. Of course, it's a question of balance, and as a radically pragmatic liberal, one of the most serious SINS a liberal can commit is to coerce "redistribution" and make the taxpayer angry and resentful.

I think it is sinful to "take" from people who work hard and who are successful. It is a sin to make working people feel foolish for working while others loaf and benefit from other's hard work. So when we pay for "redistributive" programs, we have to be very careful. As to what level of approval we need from the taxpayers who are burdened with the costs, if we require consensus, then there will never be any redistribution of anything. Perhaps simple majorities are too simple, permitting too much redistribution. Perhaps we should require 55% or 60% majorities (2/3 are too high, in my view) to raise taxes. But I also think that any tax benefit should require a similarly high vote.

In any case, it's not easy to govern a large, complex, society, and I don't believe in governing via bumper sticker slogans. In any case, I've been trying to pull myself away from here to get some rest, but these belated, intelligent posts have drawn me in.

Gnite

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Commander_King:

Fox News is near bottom in ratings.

____________________

McShame:

Obama holds "wide lead" in Minnesota according to new Star Tribune poll. Results on Sunday.

http://www.startribune.com/politics/state/31234564.html?elr=KArks8c7PaP3E77K_3c::D3aDhUec7PaP3E77K_0c::D3aDhUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU

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MDB1974:

Here is a question. Is there a risk that Obama ad saturation could backfire? Could it create burnout? As a supporter I hope not but this seems to be a question no one is asking. As one who works in advertising I guess I should no this, but it is rare that an organization truly has the resources to do this so it is not something that enters the discussion. It would be horrible if in the final media blitz the saturation created a turnoff.

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Bigmike:

Solo

Obamas comment was not taken out of context. When I heard it, they played the whole tape.

Then a day or two later some network decided they needed to get Joe on the air. Joe called it socialist at that time. Nothing misleading there. They asked Joe's opinion and he gave it.

What some political analyst has to say about it is irrelevent. It is what the electorate thinks. Me, I agree with Joe. Thats one out of 150 million.

The big question is how many more voters agree.

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Bigmike:

Boris

It is all a matter of degrees. In my mind, Obama's price tag is too high.

____________________

fed:

strange, still waiting for an answer from vivala, believe it or not we had it in the gallup posting, still waiting

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zotz:

This is the account of Federal Reserve Secretary Marriner S. Eccles. He headed the Fed in the Roosevelt administration. Here he is talking about how the concentration of wealth in the upper 1% of the population caused the Great Depression. This is the argument for "spreading the wealth".

"As mass production has to be accompanied by mass consumption, mass consumption, in turn, implies a distribution of wealth — not of existing wealth, but of wealth as it is currently produced — to provide men with buying power equal to the amount of goods and services offered by the nations economic machinery. [Emphasis in original.]

Instead of achieving that kind of distribution, a giant suction pump had by 1929-30 drawn into a few hands an increasing portion of currently produced wealth. This served them as capital accumulations. But by taking purchasing power out of the hands of mass consumers, the savers denied to themselves the kind of effective demand for their products that would justify a reinvestment of their capital accumulations in new plants. In consequence, as in a poker game where the chips were concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, the other fellows could stay in the game only by borrowing. When their credit ran out, the game stopped.

That is what happened to us in the twenties. We sustained high levels of employment in that period with the aid of an exceptional expansion of debt outside of the banking system. This debt was provided by the large growth of business savings as well as savings by individuals, particularly in the upper-income groups where taxes were relatively low. Private debt outside of the banking system increased about fifty per cent. This debt, which was at high interest rates, largely took the form of mortgage debt on housing, office, and hotel structures, consumer installment debt, brokers' loans, and foreign debt. The stimulation to spending by debt-creation of this sort was short-lived and could not be counted on to sustain high levels of employment for long periods of time. Had there been a better distribution of the current income from the national product — in other words, had there been less savings by business and the higher-income groups and more income in the lower groups — we should have had far greater stability in our economy. Had the six billion dollars, for instance, that were loaned by corporations and wealthy individuals for stock-market speculation been distributed to the public as lower prices or higher wages and with less profits to the corporations and the well-to-do, it would have prevented or greatly moderated the economic collapse that began at the end of 1929.

The time came when there were no more poker chips to be loaned on credit. Debtors thereupon were forced to curtail their consumption in an effort to create a margin that could be applied to the reduction of outstanding debts. This naturally reduced the demand for goods of all kinds and brought on what seemed to be overproduction, but was in reality underconsumption when judged in terms of the real world instead of the money world. This, in turn, brought about a fall in prices and employment.

Unemployment further decreased the consumption of goods, which further increased unemployment, thus closing the circle in a continuing decline of prices. Earnings began to disappear, requiring economies of all kinds in the wages, salaries, and time of those employed. And thus again the vicious circle of deflation was closed until one third of the entire working population was unemployed, with our national income reduced by fifty per cent, and with the aggregate debt burden greater than ever before, not in dollars, but measured by current values and income that represented the ability to pay. Fixed charges, such as taxes, railroad and other utility rates, insurance and interest charges, clung close to the 1929 level and required such a portion of the national income to meet them that the amount left for consumption of goods was not sufficient to support the population.

This then, was my reading of what brought on the depression"
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=274998&start=0


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Boris_Dieter:

Ok, so, one more: Obama's economic shadow cabinet includes such socialists as Robert Rubin, Lawrence Summers, Volcker, Warren Buffet. Obama's health care proposals are similar to that of Switzerland's. And he proposes to provide tax benefits for low income folks who don't pay taxes, cut taxes for folks, earning under $250,000, and raise rates for others to about the bad old socialist Clinton days? That makes him a socialist? Pretty loose definition of socialist. When private insurance companies assess homeowners a higher premium because the average risk has gone up, even though you might actually be more careful than most, is that socialist? When you pay more for credit, because there are so many people in your demographic who are irresponsible, is that socialist? When you pay more for homeowner's insurance because others are irresponsible, even though you have never had a fire, or burglary, or other damage, is that socialist. Yes, try to get a mortgate without homeowner's insurance or try to get along without a credit history. There is no option. We are constantly assessed the cost of others, sometimes by our government, but even more often by the private sector. Let's not make pretend that socialism comes only from legislatures. If you define socialism as anytime you pay for the behavior of others, well, I hate to tell'ya, but we've been socialist for a long time.

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Bigmike:

zotz

It was a different world then. When they talk about poor people in the 20's and 30's, they mean really dirt poor.

If I remember my econ courses correctly, we now have a social "safety net" that prevents much of what happened in the great depression. We have social security, the FDIC, and unemploymnet, among others.

One potential problem is that the safety net has not kept up with the times. Our live savings are not in a bank in an FDIC backed account. They are in 401k's and IRA's.

There is another thing Joe is right about. Poor people in America have cell phones, Ipods, and Nikes. When my dad was growing up in the 30's, poor people were lucky to have a roof over their head and beans to eat.

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Bigmike:

Boris

You are correct about Obama's proposals. But Clinton was promising a middle class tax cut, and we got a tax hike instead.

By the time the Dem congress gets done, it won't look the same at all. Bet on it.

____________________

Basil:

The "socialism" argument is being conducted in an odd way. It's as though there were some absolute distinction between a "pure" socialist state and a "pure" capitalist one, when for decades there have been some aspects of gov't that clearly have socialist characteristics--social security, graduated income tax, capital gains tax, labor laws, etc.

Most non-ideologues, though they may have problems with one socialistic program or another, don't want to dump the whole list altogether. So just calling someone a socialist seems disingenuous, and aimed at voters who falsely equate socialism with communism. They called FDR a socialist, but so what?

To me a legitimate question would be "how socialistic does a gov't have to be to prevent the top 5% from controlling everything, while still maximizing capitalist incentives to entrepreneurship?" It's essentially the same as determining what kind of rules a sport needs to make it playable and fair, and it's funny how so many right-wingers are football fans who have no problem with having vast numbers of rules for football.

We've seen what happens when the neocon ideologues are allowed to make their own rules and the public be damned. To call people who want to reform the current system "socialists" is maybe true in a very narrow sense, but to suggest that they're trying to convert a capitalist system to a socialist one is ridiculous. (Or "rediculous", if you're a certain ridiculous person.) It's a question of balance and fairness.

Tighty-righties feel free to freak out now.

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Boris_Dieter:

@BigMike

Fair enough; I can't judge your sense of risk or cost. I think of him as a fairly moderate liberal, who shows all the signs of governing from the middle, if he's permitted to by what I anticipate will likely be the unreasonable, hard, and uncompromising opposition of the unloyal opposition.

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fed:

Poor people do not have savings.

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Bigmike:

OK, I will say it. Obama is LYING.

He can't spend an extra $65 billion on health care (his number), give most of us a tax break, and only increase taxes on those making $250k or more. It can't happen.

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doug s.:

john mcain says that, w/a 34% tax on businesses, usa companies have the second highest tax burden of any country on this planet. so, he would rather give the bulk of his "tax cut" to the wealthiest, corporations included. but, as has been recently borne out, "trickle down" and deregulation - another thing mccain loves - doesn't work. there has to be enough money "spread around" amongst the middle & lower classes, otherwise, they won't be able to afford anything. and, what mccain refuses to tell you, is that, in spite of the supposedly tremendous tax burden on american companies, thanks to tax loophooles, fully 61% of all usa companies - large *AND* small - pay no taxes at all - that's right *ZERO*. 61% OF ALL USA COMPANIES PAY ZERO TAXES!!! furthermore, the average tax burden of 94% of companies - large and small, was 5%, with small companies doing better than large ones, in taxation avoidance. THAT'S RIGHT - THE TAX BURDEN OF 94% OF ALL USA COMPANIES AVERAGES 5%!!! most federal taxes are paid by average working shcleps like you and me! we are the ones that need the tax breaks! if folks like "joe the plumber" had even HALF a brain, they would realize that they are just screwing themselves, and have been for years, by supporting republican policy that is simply f**king them in the ass. joe would be far better off in the long run - even if he *DID* buy his company, and netted >$250k/year, if more fair, less corporate-welfare-based tax policies like barack is proposing, were enacted, compared to more of the same old ****e being proposed by mccain.

so, tell me - what is wrong with raising the tax on someone's *NET* income over $250k from 36% to 39%, to be able to afford a tax cut for those netting less than $250k? (the tax for net income >$250k was 39% for years, btw...) this is socialism?!? please spare me. if you query *ANY* person in any other free 1st-world democratic country what they think of usa democrats, they will tell you they would be the most right-wing party in their respective country.

but, for argument's, sake, let's just say barack's tax plan *IS* socialism - i would much prefer it to the gross corporate welfare we have had, thanks to republican trickle-down economics, which dubyah increased, and which mccain wants to increase even further. it is just plain driven by greed. not only that, it's ignorant - it doesn't work.

doug s.

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Boris_Dieter:

@Basil

Thank you for being so articulate and infinitely less wind-baggy than I. I have strong technical opposition to a genuinely socialist agenda. But to call Democrats in the U.S. socialist destroys all rigor in the use of language.

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Ryguy:

big mike there is a lot to cover there

first of all what youve said about poor people now is a blanket statement and does not prove to be true for many people. however, there is a reason it is true for some. that reason is that we are a much more consumer based world than we were 80 years ago. we live in an age where we are told to live above our means constantly and people make poor decisions because of it. everywhere you look youre being told that you wont be happy unless you buy, and i know far too many people who believe that, and suffer financially because of it. dont be fooled though. a big misconception that a lot of people have is they see a poor person who is severely over weight and say how can they be poor, looks like they are eating well enough. they arent, theyre just eating a 99 cent burger from mcdonalds. if they 2 cent burgers at every street corner in the 20's youd see people eating them in stead of beans.

poor is poor... as much as we try to kid ourselves...

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zotz:

Bigmike-
Much of our wealth is based on high debt and low savings. For most familes the most valuable asset they own is their home. That bubble has burst. The average American can no longer spend as he or she was accustomed to. Since US consumption has driven the world's economy this will have serious world wide effects. The Chinese economic miracle is based on exports. If Americans don't buy their products they will have a serious economic downturn. We will see economic deflation if we do not maintain consumption. Governments will have to, by necessity, take a larger role in the economy.

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DTM:

The point Obama was making is that the economy does better overall when it is working well for the middle class. That's pragmatism, not socialism.

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Boris_Dieter:

HEY FOLKS,

Let's not get into the silly game of actually suggesting that people running for president actually have to make arithmetic sense when it comes to the costs of their proposals, whether these are coming from the mouths of GOP or Democratic politicians. Obviously the proposals of Obama and McCain are budgetarily outta whack. But, by the by, all objective analysis of the McCain or Obama proposals indicates that it's McCain's that will blow the far bigger budget hole, due to his support for eliminating the "death tax" and extending the current tax cuts. Them's the facts, but I don't consider campaign rhetoric as anything other than information that tells me where a candidate's heart and priorities are, not what he/she is going to have to do when the reality of the office actually sets in for one or the other.

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Bigmike:

Doug S.

You guys make me laugh.

Corporations don't pay taxes. They collect them from their customers (you and me) and give them to the govt. Go ahead, raise corp taxes. What you pay for goods and services will go up more than any puny tax cut Obama is gonna give you. And when stuff costs more, we will all buy less. So your boss doesn't need as many employees.

Calling it socialism may be a bit strong. It is moving in that direction. And it is just semantics. If that makes me disingenuous, OK. Barack is telling more lies than I am.

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Ryguy:

big mike,

have the tax policies of the past 8 years made your products more affordable for you? scratch that, has it made life in general more affordable?

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Bigmike:

Boris

"I don't consider campaign rhetoric as anything other than information that tells me where a candidate's heart and priorities are"

Thank you. You make my point better than I do. Obama and a dem congress will tax more, spend more, and redistibute more than he is telling us.

Been fun. Gotta go too.

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Bigmike:

Ryguy

Uh.......YES.

I have a hell of a lot more money than I did 8 years ago.

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Basil:

Since I started fooling around with my last post, others have more eloquently made my basic point.

R's seem like the either/or party, D's the both/and party. In a big world, either/or is often just a provincial attitude. But in the true D spirit of inclusiveness, I'll concede that either/or has its points.

Sorry if this double-posts. My screen's freezing up and I'm retrying.

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Ryguy:

trickle down theory does not work... corporate tax cuts dont get passed on to the consumer... they get passed on into the pockets of millionaires.

look, the fact is the middle class is shrinking. the wealthiest 1% of america controls more money than the bottom 50% combined. and thats a conservative estimate. the american dream is fine, but we have to realize that its a mythology. not everyone is going to become rich no matter how hard they work. the system isnt set up to support that. thats why its a dream, and not a reality. if you can keep the middle class relatively secure than you keep actual class warfare from taking place. thats not socialism, marxism, terrorism, or any ism... its just true.

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doug s.:

hey bigmike, if corporations do not pay taxes, then can you get john mccain to quit lying about how american corporations are the second most heavily taxed corporations in the world?

thanks,

doug s.

ps - calling it socialism may be a bit strong? lol - that's an understatement, if i ever heard one. but, it's what republicans like to do best - scare tactics to feed the ignorant, so the rich can get richer at the expense of the poor dummies...

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Boris_Dieter:

@Bigmike

Actually most countries that you would call more socialist have lower statutory corporate taxes than we do. We have the world's second lowest actual level of corporate taxes because of deductions and so-called loopholes. Depending on the state of competition a corporation might pass on all, some or none of the taxes to its customers. Your response is more in the vein of a debating tactic, not one of trying to have serious conversation. Taxes in the U.S. are, in actuality quite low, and at the federal level, tend to go to very few items (social security, medicare, defense, interest on the debt, pretty much take up the vast percentage). Now, from the point of view of the taxpayer here, taxes might be too high, but comparing actual dollars spent to the burden of taxes in other advanced societies, we have a lower burden. That's not an argument for higher taxes here. It's just a fact. Whether we administer public programs well or whether we spend our tax dollars where we should are also other issues. But we are never likely to be a socialist country. But we are going to have to do a lot more to invest in our human capital and in our infrastructure if we are going to avoid slipping further against our competition. Also, if we are going to encourage our smaller businesses from being destroyed by their real enemies -- big business -- then we had better support a smarter and more active government. None of that has anything to do with socialism.

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fed:

When communism collapsed, the whole world thought that a 100% free market was the system that worked. Most of us believed that at that point in time. In the last weeks we learned we were wrong. As a matter of fact countries with a mixed baking system are doing much better than we are. I believe it must be very difficult for republicans to accept that their world order was wrong. Europeans gave us a lesson by starting to buy the stocks in their banks, the same stocks they had sold 20 years ago. it seems that the middle ground was the correct path to take

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Ryguy:

well mike congratulations. but the fact of the matter is that whats been true for you in the past 8 years has not been true for the vast majority of americans, including yours truly.

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zotz:

The spending power of the middle class has been going DOWN the past eight years. Yet we maintained our high levels of consumption by borrowing. Once we stop spending our economy starts contracting ie. recession. Obama is correct to cut taxes for the middle class. They are the most important drivers of the economy, not the rich.

I wish he could explain this in a way ordinary people would understand.

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Bigmike:

I leave you with something my father used to tell me.

If you are looking for sympathy, try Websters, somewhere between sweat and toil.

Goodnight all

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MDB1974:

I don't understand how people get away with the accusation that Dems will spend more. Our national debt is 10 trillion. 5 of that is from W and over 3 is from Reagan Bush. What the hell are you talking about.

The elephant in the room when it comes to raising or not raising taxes is who is going to pay the bills. Us or our kids?

Republicans always say, "lower the deficit by cutting waste." But they simply don't do it. In the last 28 years the only one to ever balance the budget was a "big spending" democrat.

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doug s.:

hey bigmike you said:

Bigmike:

Boris

"...Obama and a dem congress will tax more, spend more, and redistibute more than he is telling us...."

i don't agree with you, but goddamn, i sure hope you are right! :>) it's the only way out of this mess. america is falling apart at the seems. healthcare, infrastructure, education, respect from the rest of the world - you name it, it's going down the toilet. and tax-n-spend is a hell of a lot better than borrow & spend.

doug s.

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Bigmike:

OK, dammit, one more

Boris

Our taxes may be low by Europeans standards. That is my point once again.

I don't want European standards to apply here!!

I kind of like the one's we have.

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Ryguy:

its not about sympathy mike. sweat and toil does not pay off for everyone in the same way it did for your father. if people cant get health care, and cant get a good education how the hell are they supposed to work their way out of a socio economic situation that they were born into? as i just stated the wealthiest 1% owns the vast majority of the money in this country. thats not a good system. so you can sweat and toil all you want but only a severely small portion of this country will ever get to the point where they can actually sit around and bitch about taxes being unfair. so what most people dont understand is that they are defending a system that does not serve them, but rather the dream that maybe one day it could be them. in the mean time they sweat and toil and never get to become part of that 1%.

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Boris_Dieter:

@MDB1974

Well, Bigmike ain't around, or so he says, but GOP types say yes the GOP has fouled up and blown a hole in the budget and national debt. But defenders of Palin/Mccain say that ticket is not really like the old GOP and that they are "mavericks" who are different and will bring back fiscal discipline. Of course, their proposals, as they've expressed them on the campaign trail, are even more fiscally crazy than Obama/Biden, if you assume the latter are crazy. I have no doubt that Obama will probably be fiscally responsible, although it will be very hard in the face of a declining economy which will likely require a massive fiscal and monetary stimulus to get it going again. McCain is partially right. Now is not a time to generally raise taxes. I think it would be ok to permit the Bush tax cuts to end and to provide middle class tax cuts and more money for low income folks to spend at the food store and Walmart until the economy is going again. It's going to be tough, since our manufacturing utilization figures are declining by the second and unemployment is increasing. So, in general, raising taxes is not a good idea, although having this level of inequality and declining purchasing power among the vast majority of Americans is catastrophic. So, as a pragmatist, I'd say a two year, massive stimulus, financed with a little redistribution from the very top, but mainly with some continued deficit spending on things we need -- roads, bridges, schools, levees, dams -- will likely be required.

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DTM:

As I have noted before, economists long ago showed the incidence of corporate taxes (who actually pays them) is ultimately not consumers, but rather those who provide capital to corporations. Again, the full argument is complex, but the basic point is that prices in competitive markets are set by supply and demand. So, corporations can't pass on their taxes to consumers, but instead have to take them out of their profit margins.

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MDB1974:

One more thing about "spread the wealth" backlash. It seems like people are clueless about basic free market principles. The consumption of the wealthy is a tax on the poor. The fact that the guy making 250 a year wants to live on 6 acres and have a 5000 sq ft home and drive an 11 mpg hummer means that the single mom down the street has to pay more for her 1 bedroom, dumpy apt. and the gas she puts in her 93 corola. It is as simple as supply in demand.

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Basil:

fed

Exactly. Just because the gov't can't plan everything (a la failed Soviet state capitalism) doesn't mean it can't plan anything at all. The idiot neocon worldview is just the opposite of an imaginary socialist one. Neither makes much sense in the "real" world (wherever that is), as we may have noticed lately.

The coincidence of the fall of the evil empire and the rise of its antithesis, reaganomics, is something Hegel would presumably appreciate. Can I get a synthesis?

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Ryguy:

trickle down theory does not work. period. the small population of wealthy people are getting wealthier (good for them! i watch the hills yay i want to be famous!) while the middle class is shrinking. im ****ing infuriated at the notion that people who are rich got there by working hard and if people worked harder they would be rich. bull **** ok bull ****! you know who works hard? the guy working 3 jobs and is barely staying afloat. is he working hard enough for you? or is he a ****ing lazy piece of **** that doesnt deserve "sympathy". he can sit there and dream about being a millionaire while actual millionaires get richer and it becomes more and more difficult for him to stay afloat.

you know republicans do love to say that this is the only country where you can become so wealthy. well if thats the case maybe they need to give something back to the only country that made it possible for them to get there. congrats, this country has made you filth rich, now how about helping that country of yours out by helping to ensure that getting treated for an illness is not above a pay grade.

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fed:

@Basil
Exactly.............thank god someone understands me lol

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orange24:

This comes from Fox News. Appraently, they received this from Colin Powell's press office. Take it for what it's worth...

"Those of us who have served, worn the cloth of our nation, and gone into harm’s way know that to be successful we must have the strongest sense of trust in our Commander in Chief. We must be confident that he has listened to the best possible advice, that he has garnered the best possible information from all possible sources, that he has analyzed and weighed all the possible consequences and outcomes, and that he has made the decision to exert military force as a last possible resort," said a four stars General (Ret.) Collin Powell a former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. "Of this I am certain: Senator Obama will do all of those things and much more to ensure the safety and freedom of our citizens, our allies, and coalition partners. He has all the great qualities and attributes required to carry out the most difficult duties of the Presidency. He is ready."

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Ryguy:

sorry, i didnt mean to scare anyone off... yikes...

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doug s.:

dtm, you said:

"As I have noted before, economists long ago showed the incidence of corporate taxes (who actually pays them) is ultimately not consumers, but rather those who provide capital to corporations. Again, the full argument is complex, but the basic point is that prices in competitive markets are set by supply and demand. So, corporations can't pass on their taxes to consumers, but instead have to take them out of their profit margins."

damn! does that mean, that if american corporations have to pay more taxes & take the money outta their profit margins, that they may have to re-think paying their ceo's 200 times what their average white-collar workers make, instead of the ceo's in the rest of the free world, whose salaries average "only" about 20 times what their average white collar workers earn? damn, that would be a shame.... ;~)

doug s.

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fed:

Ryguy I do agree with you and with Powell too

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doug s.:

MDB1974, you said:

"One more thing about "spread the wealth" backlash. It seems like people are clueless about basic free market principles. The consumption of the wealthy is a tax on the poor. The fact that the guy making 250 a year wants to live on 6 acres and have a 5000 sq ft home and drive an 11 mpg hummer means that the single mom down the street has to pay more for her 1 bedroom, dumpy apt. and the gas she puts in her 93 corola. It is as simple as supply in demand."

NO! - you don't mean that our trickle-down economic policy of the past thirty years is actually social welfare for the rich, do you? who'd a thunk? say it ain't so!!! ;~)

doug s.

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fed:

@orange 24 could you give us the link to your last post?

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DTM:

@doug s.

I understand your point, but to give you a serious answer, the corporate tax doesn't necessarily come out of CEO pay either--basically, it comes out of corporate shareholders and lenders, not the employees of the corporations per se (although obviously these days the categories are overlapping, with CEOs, among other employees, often holding a lot of equity).

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orange24:

It may be false. I haven't been able to find it on the Fixed News website. It was posted on a political message board at topix.com. Several have asked for verification and appropriate link, but the poster has not responded (possible they just went to bed - like I should). I hope it's true. It certainly looks official, but I truly apologize if it's not.

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Ryguy:

well fed, i appreciate the words of agreement. looking back on my post i suppose it was a bit... strongly worded. i was typing the way i was thinking, and hit the submit button before i really got a change to cool off. it just upsets me that joe the plumber admits that obamas tax policies would actually help him, but screw that hed rather bet on that 1% chance that he can join an elite group of people who are hording most of the money. so he works hard, votes against his interest, and never gets to that elite level, just as 99% of americans never will. he has a harder time living his life so that he can hold on to the imaginary money that he will one day get when hes reached the almost unattainable status of wealth. its absurd...

a dream of wealth does not constitute a quality of living...

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fed:
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fed:

Does not look very trustworthy, unfortunatly

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Basil:

Thank all of you (even Mike) for one of the more rational discussions on this site. Though it's verging on a mutual admiration society, I have a feeling there are other eyes on these posts.

One of Obama's jokes at the Al Smith dinner may have come from a previous post, if I'm not mistaken. I often am.

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THANK YOU FAITHHOPELOVE

Good job (I really appreciate your post)

I will copy/paste on my website, AND GIVE YOU A BIG SHOUTOUT!!! and WILL BE SURE TO DIRECT PEOPLE TO THIS SITE?

Do you have your own website

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NW Patrick:

Can't we just be honest? Joe the FAKE plumber is white trash. He owns nothing, doesn't pay his already high taxes anyways, and makes 40,000 per year. He has a **** job in the co., no license, and could NEVER get a bank loan to buy the business. The entire story is STUPID and once again shows the intellectual prowess of Republican low income followers. Good Bye GOP.

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