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US: Obama 49, McCain 46 (Battleground 9/29-10/02)

Topics: PHome

GWU Battleground
Tarrance (R)/ Lake Research (D)
09/29-10/02,08; 800 LV 3/5%
Mode: Live Telephone Interviews

National
Obama 49, McCain 46

Note: The numbers above have been revised to reflect a correction sent by GWU/Battleground. Their initial email release showed Obama leading McCain, 50% to 43%

 

Comments
zotz:

That's better!

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mysticlaker:

RaRo:


For those who don't want to click the link

Obama +10 in NH.

Bye Bye McSame.

His path to a tie is over now as well. NH cares about jobs, the enviornment, and freedoms. We did NOT like Failin's answer to the VP question. Bye Bye.

NH also has the great advantage of being surronded by Obama states, so volunteers are no problem here.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/new_hampshire/election_2008_new_hampshire_presidential_election

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JoelR:

@Morssa,

Thanks for the link about NH! The news just keeps getting better & better.

It really appears that Obama has solidified all the Kerry states with 252 EVs. Add in "safe" IA & NM & we're up to 264. OH, VA, NC, FL, NC, MO, NV, take your pick! Maybe all!

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mysticlaker:

RaRo:


For those who don't want to click the link

Obama +10 in NH.

Bye Bye McSame.

His path to a tie is over now as well. NH cares about jobs, the enviornment, and civil liberties. We did NOT like Failin's answer to the VP question. Bye Bye McCrazy and Weirdo Woman.

NH also has the great advantage of being surronded by Obama states, so volunteers are no problem here.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/new_hampshire/election_2008_new_hampshire_presidential_election

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thoughtful:

Morning Zotz

This poll should be fully adjusted thanks to Nate's advise, it would appear, tomorrow.

How you find the Veep ping pong?

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Save US:

hell yea... we need NH...

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Shannon,Dallas,Texas:

That NH poll is astounding! I think the damage is done. It's an insurmountable task ahead for McCain to try and bring Obama back down. Obama's favorability ratings are very high.

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thoughtful:

4 weeks to go, a lot can still happen, this is GOTV election, but the fat lady is in the backgound clearing her throat, going up the scales!

NH +10, WoW, in line with National Polls!

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thoughtful:

Are we on the crest of last week's post-debate swing to Obama?

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mysticlaker:

Post debate swing? Are you kidding me? No, this is nothing to do with debates, and everything to do about the economy and the state of the nation.

Obama just solidified himself last week in the debate with leaners. Biden probably helped last night as well.

Palin may help the repub base by not drooling last night, but that can't win this election. Now, is pure offense time for Obama.

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boomshak:

BIDEN TELLS WHOPPER ON IRAQ:

"Biden is telling absurd lies about Afghanistan tonight. In particular, he's repeatedly claimed that "we've spent less in Afghanistan in seven years than we spend in a month in Iraq."

He's made that claim, or claims to that effect, repeatedly. It is, to put it bluntly, a complete Goddamned lie.

According to the Congressional Research Service, spending on the war in Afghanistan since 2001 has been $172 Billion. Spending in Iraq is, as the Democrats repeatedly mention, a little under $10 Billion a month.

In other words, Biden's number is off by, oh, something like 2000%. Perhaps Obama's Sub-Committee ought to have held some hearings on Afghanistan after all."

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thoughtful:

@mysticlaker

Obama's lead is widening, that's why I ask the question: a post debate swing?

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boomshak:

On Ohio, the Obama Team is turning in an outstanding GOTH effort.

Huh, what is "GOTH"?

Get-Out-The-Homeless, of course.

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Commander_King:

Boom...how does it feel knowing you will lose the election?

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boomshak:

@thoughtful:

What do you think Of Biden's claim that we spend more in a month in Iraq than we have spent in 7 years in Afghanistan?

Iraq: $10 billion
Afghanistan: $170 billion

It's the new math!

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thoughtful:

@Boomshak

McCain is right: "Life isn't fair"!

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boomshak:

Maybe some of that Botox leaked into Biden's brain?

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Trosen:

Palin did exactly what I expected her to do last night. Give very good, scripted answers that may or may not have anything to do with the question asked. Ifill was a horrible moderator. The right-wing media successfully scared her into being an absentee moderator, not challenging Palin OR Biden when they obfuscated or refused to answer her questions. Very very weak on her part. This will help McCain a little bit. You might even see a little tightening in the polls over the next few days. But I doubt it will be significant. By the way, as an Obama supporter myself, I think the campaign is doing a good job of "stuffing" the flash poll post-debate boxes. I don't think undecided voters really picked Obama or Biden as the "winners" by the amount the CNN,CBS,etc. polls show.

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boomshak:

Biden told no less than 10 COMPLETE WHOPPERS last night. Too bad the American Public is too damned stupid to know he was eleoquently shoveling sh*t on their heads.

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m913:

I live in NH, and I am just so proud now.

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TJIRISH34:

I would like to apologize to Boomshack. After watching the debate last night. I must say that Palin's performance was a "game changer." Clearly Sarah has a vivacious winning personality, is well read, educated, full of substance, knows as nuch about foreign policy as Biden and gosh Sarah is just "awesome." With a capital A!!! If McCain/Palin win I hope Sarah can take over and lead this nation out of the doldrums. She has it all. A female Reagan. Gosh Boomshack I wish I was a Republican so I could follow Sarah anywhere she leads me. Even if it is over a cliff. Gauging from the GOP reaction. I am sure they will follow Sarah over a cliff. Especially if she winks and flirts with them as they fall.

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scott88:

boomidiot....every time i think you can't say something "stupider" you prove me wrong....my question is - will you be on this sight november 5 eating crow or will you go and hide under a rock?? i notice you are no longer talking about how bad all the polls are....are we to now assume you agree obama has a sizable lead by any metric???

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boomshak:

JUST A SMATTERING OF BIDEN'S FIBBERATIONS FROM LAST NIGHT:

(It really is hard to believe one man could actually tell this many lies in just an hour and a half.)

1. TAX VOTE: Biden said McCain voted “the exact same way” as Obama to increase taxes on Americans earning just $42,000, but McCain DID NOT VOTE THAT WAY.

2. AHMADINEJAD MEETING: Joe Biden lied when he said that Barack Obama never said that he would sit down unconditionally with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran. Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe Biden attacked him for it.

3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING: Biden said, “Drill we must.” But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to “raping” the Outer Continental Shelf.”

4. TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same way against funding the troops in the field. John McCain opposed a bill that included a timeline, that the President of the United States had already said he would veto regardless of it’s passage.

5. OPPOSING CLEAN COAL: Biden says he’s always been for clean coal, but he just told a voter that he is against clean coal and any new coal plants in America and has a record of voting against clean coal and coal in the U.S. Senate.

6. ALTERNATIVE ENERGY VOTES: According to FactCheck.org, Biden is exaggerating and overstating John McCain’s record voting for alternative energy when he says he voted against it 23 times.

7. HEALTH INSURANCE: Biden falsely said McCain will raise taxes on people’s health insurance coverage — they get a tax credit to offset any tax hike. Independent fact checkers have confirmed this attack is false

8. OIL TAXES: Biden falsely said Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska — she reformed the state tax and revenue system, it’s not a windfall profits tax.

9. AFGHANISTAN / GEN. MCKIERNAN COMMENTS: Biden said that top military commander in Iraq said the principles of the surge could not be applied to Afghanistan, but the commander of NATO’s International Security Assistance Force Gen. David D. McKiernan said that there were principles of the surge strategy, including working with tribes, that could be applied in Afghanistan.

10. REGULATION: Biden falsely said McCain weakened regulation — he actually called for more regulation on Fannie and Freddie.

11. IRAQ: When Joe Biden lied when he said that John McCain was “dead wrong on Iraq”, because Joe Biden shared the same vote to authorize the war and differed on the surge strategy where they John McCain has been proven right.

12. TAX INCREASES: Biden said Americans earning less than $250,000 wouldn’t see higher taxes, but the Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more.

13. BAILOUT: Biden said the economic rescue legislation matches the four principles that Obama laid out, but in reality it doesn’t meet two of the four principles that Obama outlined on Sept. 19, which were that it include an emergency economic stimulus package, and that it be part of “part of a globally coordinated effort with our partners in the G-20.”

14. REAGAN TAX RATES: Biden is wrong in saying that under Obama, Americans won’t pay any more in taxes then they did under Reagan.

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mac_1103:

It is, to put it bluntly, a complete Goddamned lie.

And it will have absolutely zero traction in the campaign, since McCain and Palin have a number of equally complete goddamned lies on their resumes. Sadly, most people have come to expect politicians to lie to them about all sorts of things. They've learned not to base their votes on either the lies or the accusations of lying.

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Tarp Lazer:

Boom - Read and shut the hell up.

Then get a life.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/politics/2008/10/biden_on_the_cost_of_war_in_ir.html

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carl29:

Everyone knows that I am an Obama supporter, but I admit that Gov. Palin "came across" very good, in the eye. Nonetheless, if you were paying attention to what she was actually saying, again, she was not answering the questions, she was "reciting" entire lines. In my opinion, she look totally rehearsed and fake at times. Again, in my opinion.

I think that Joe Biden for the first 20 minutes made the same mistake McCain did during his debate with Obama, didn't look at the camera, looked at the moderator. That's a big mistake because the person looks evasive, not confident. Gov. Palin did exactly what Obama did, talk to the camera and look at the opponent when talking. Wait for McCain to not do the same mistake from the last debate on Tuesday. He will look at the camera and Obama.

Bottom line, since television distract from what the person is actually saying, I think she helped herself a lot. That is the great advantage of TV, people take into account "performance" to a great degree. Remember the Kennedy vs. Nixon debate? People who saw the debate tought that Kennedy won; people who listened to the debate thought that Nixon won. Obviously the overall appeareance of Kennedy helped. I think the same think will happened with Gov. Palin.

Now, to be very honest, I found her facial gesture a little bit over the top for me. I honestly felt that she was flirting with the camera, which I find quite "unprofessional." I honestly don't think that she came accross as presidential, as a serious candidate. My opinion probably will not be the case for most people, but for me that was quite telling. I saw too much "little faces," like a girl who is about to get into trouble and is trying to make daddy laugh with "sweet faces."

I don't know how the "facial expressions," the flirting in my opinion, will play out with the average voter, but it really didn't do any good for me. As a woman, professional woman on my way to becoming an attorney, I fight for keeping my overall appereance as professional as possible. I save those "sweet faces" for police officers :-), my friends, family, and husband, never my professors, bosses, or clients. As I said it, I don't know what the average voter will think, but it surely didn't fly with me :-)

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zotz:

thoughtful-
Happy morning to you! (whatever time it is there)
Biden started poorly but got better in the second half. I thought Palin's "zingers" fell flat, such as the "white flag of surrender" sounded rehearsed and was said without conviction. The golly-gee-wilikikers! folksiness was embarrassing to anyone outside of Fargo. (Sorry ND)

Biden badly mangled his attack on McCain's health care plan but he was much better on foreign policy. That was where Palin really showed herself to be out of her league. Did you see her reading her answers? Biden showed emotion and conviction. He came across as informed and caring. Palin came across as rehearsed but she didn't fall on her face so that is why the Reps are happy.

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thoughtful:

Boomshak

The sad truth is that all politicians misrepresent and Lie!

@Trosen

You got it right except the polling. this will have no or if any effect on the polls the undecided moderates will not break to GOP She wasn't that good!

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Dave:

Iraq: $10 billion
Afghanistan: $170 billion

are you kidding?

we have exceeded a trillion dollars in iraq and with interest and by the time they are done it will be trillions of dollars of our hard earned money tossed onto a bonfire.

nobel prize winning economist dr. steigletz estimated as of last summer it already exceeded $3 Trillion dollars...

so if anything, biden severely underreported the differences...

of course we shouldn't have declared war on a whole country just to go arrest a few hundred people in the first place, but how else would we use all those shiny toys we'be been spending 1/2 of our money on for all these years, right boom boom?

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Tarp Lazer:

Also, Boom - great job copying your post from another website verbatum and not citing it. Idiot.

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boomshak:

@scott88:

So I take it you give full-throated approval to the LIES told by Biden that I just listed? Are you claiming he did not say these things?

And you support a man whi is either deceitful enough and stupid enough to tell 14 bald-faced lies in one debate?

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boomshak:

@Tarp Lazer:

Do you disagree with the statements? yes, no?

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boomshak:

@Dave:
Iraq: $10 billion (A MONTH!)
Afghanistan: $170 billion

Geesh, read the post nimrod.

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Tarp Lazer:

Boom - here again, you post a long list of bull**** that you clearly just stole from some right wing website. Also notice that it contains NO facts at all. I can post an equally long list of every sentence in reverse and it would be just as legitimate. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it untrue.

I am curious. What do you do all day besides post on this website? Seriously. You are either rich and don't work, in which case you are the stupidest rich person I know, or you are some kid on his mom's computer, or you are hired by the McCain campaign (in which case I know why they are losing the election). Which is it? I really want to know.

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AJ:

Boom, I just got that '14 things Biden is wrong about' from McCain advisor on MSNBC. Wow, you do get those talking points quickly. Any independent thoughts though?

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scott88:

boomignorant,

this 14 points you make are completely false...i don't have the time to refute them one by on, except to say you are only correct about #1 and #3 - as for #3 you might be right that biden has opposed off shore drilling, what you fail to mention is so has mccain and so has obama...all three have adjusted their positions given the campaign and the oil crisis

i'm not sure if you are ignorant or blinded by your passion or if you are being deliberately misleading??

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boomshak:

LUNTZ FOCUS GROUP REACTION:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKrk_6QjcNw

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thoughtful:

@ZotZ coming up to 6.30 am

I thought like Trosen the right wing media was the winner.

Biden was going to be agressive with her. he stood off and jabbed, kept his distance. Ifill never got them really in centhe centre of the ring to slug it out.

She sort of shadowed boxed but her her timing was awful, you're right her hooks didn't land.

She turned her back a few times but Ifill didn't insist that she respond.

Biden was much better, disciplined than I expected, his voice breaking emotionally towards the end sealed a points victory in a kind of exhibition fight.

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Tarp Lazer:

Boom - did you even read the link I posted? Obviously not. I will post it again. Biden said we spend more on combat in 3 weeks in Iraq than we have trying to rebuild Afghanistan in 7 years. Read the link. Do you agree with this statement? Yes or no?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/politics/2008/10/biden_on_the_cost_of_war_in_ir.html

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metsmets:

@Boomshak
What are you so upset about? If Biden or Obama lied, it was about the past. This election is about the future!!!

Oh, I'm sorry - that's her line! And boy did she stay "on script".

Bush League MVP Palin


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boomshak:

@thoughtful,

"his voice breaking emotionally towards the end"

His voice "breaks emotionally" on cue every time he tells that story.

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mac_1103:

boomshak,

Read the actual quote. He was comparing military spending in Iraq with foreign aid to Afghanistan. It's a disingenuous apples to oranges comparison, but it's not "new math." And it really isn't any more disingenuous than some of the stuff that comes from the other side, or for that matter, some of the stuff you post here.

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vmval1:

Anybody want to guess the rasmussen margin today?


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vmval1:

im going with steady at O + 7

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Tarp Lazer:

A youtube video from FOX news about a focus group at the Anheuser Busch headquarters? Are you f-ing serious? I mean come on. This is what you find to say that your candidate won the debate? So you gloss over EVERY major poll that was done out there by every MAJOR network? You are lame.

And again, I ask, what is it that you do? Why are you here? Why? Do you honestly think that someone is going to read this post and change their vote this election? I've asked you this numerous times and you keep dodging the question better than Palin would. What do you intend to accomplish here? Do you think you are making a difference? If you really thought McCain-Palin was so much better, wouldn't you be out volunteering during the day rather than posting on here every 2 minutes from 8AM to midnight?

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Trosen:

boom has a point.. Biden has a penchant for lacking a brain-to-mouth filter and has been known, last night being no exception, for "exaggerating" facts to make a point. (although the fact-checking list he keeps posting over and over needs serious fact-checking of its own). But what boom or other right-wingers won't want to talk about is how we got to this point. Real, tough investigative journalism has been dead for some time. Sure, you'll see some token "fact-checking" for 2 mins after debates or speeches.. but for 8 years the press has rolled over for the Bush Administration has rolled over and played dead, not challenging any assertions, no matter how patently false, and look how well that worked out. ("Where are those weapons of mass destruction anyway? tee-hee") The media is a series of giant conglomerates, i.e. a few giant corporations control all major media outlets. It's all for-profit, with Washington lobbyists and the whole deal. Excessive "fact-checking" isn't good for ratings.. not good for business. Just juicy sound-bites, clips, and cute winks and phrases. The right-wing wanted a neutered media who wouldn't really challenge the politicians, and well, they got it. So don't cry to us about it. You reap what you sew.

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CHill:

@Boom
Biden was referring to construction spending in regards to Afghanistan Vs Iraq.

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AJ:

On the other note, McCain is pulling out of Michigan and moving his staff to Indiana. in the words of Sarah Palin "...that is just waiving a white flag of surrender."

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mysticlaker:

Yes, we are glad that three people in Luntz's focus group are now McCain supporters. Good for them. Just like, I am glad the folks in CNN group are Obama supporters.

There is one month left before the election. Sarah Palin will only be doing stump speeches from now on. That's it. As the guys on 538 said, her show is over. Think about 1 month (sep 1 - oct 1), and how much happened. Now we have only October and it is McCain, versus Obama only. That's a fight I feel pretty good about as Democrat.

Sarah is over...We won't see her again making any significant contribution (+ or -) to the campaign.

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Tarp Lazer:

Also, criticizing Biden for choking up when he talks about the death of this family? Real smooth move there.

It would be almost like, say, a candidate constantly bringing up the fact that he was a POW or that she has a special needs child.

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boomshak:

@Tarp Lazer:

Dude, I have seen him tell that same story 5 times on the campaign trail. He chokes up exactly the SAME way at the SAME time every single time he tells it.

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pbcrunch:

This poll is downright funky... showing a 9 point swing to Obama in a week.

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boomshak:

WHY THIS DEBATE MATTERS (AND SARAH PALIN STILL MATTERS):

"Women Who Are Politically Independent: Up for Grabs?"

http://www.gallup.com/poll/110938/Women-Who-Politically-Independent-Grabs.aspx

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sunnymi:


Boomshak, listen carefully before you make an accusation.

Biden said, "Look, we have spent more money -- we spend more money in three weeks on combat in Iraq than we spent on the entirety of the last seven years that we have been in Afghanistan building that country."

The figures are $10 billion in Iraq in 3 months on combat and $8 billion in Afghanistan on building it.

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Tarp Lazer:

Again, Boom, you pull a Palin and ignore all of my previous postings. Read above and answer my questions. Afraid to?

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NHBlue:

Ayuh... I knew NH would come around.

As for boom, here's my take. Old guy in assisted living. Nothing better to do. The other residents run when they see him coming (they've heard it all too). Bloggers are a captive audience, sort of. Of course I may be totally wrong. Whatever the case-- question is: what does he do in one month when nobody cares any more?

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Rames1980:

Carl29,

I agree Palin was rattling memorized lines which corresponded sometimes more, sometimes less with the questions being asked. When asked a question she hadn't been prepped for (the one on Cheney's vision on the vice-presidency) she lapsed into the kind of incoherent rambling we saw in the Katie Couric interviews. I wouldn't give her the nuclear launch codes.

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thoughtful:

@Boomshak

I represent my own point of view, as it were running a very small part of the United States Empire off these shores involving trade throughout the world (nothing in Africa and South America but virtually everywhere else), when I am working!

Unfortunately the GOP and BUSH Government has betrayed the American peoples interest.

Many fortunes have been made over the last 7 or so years of Bush, there has been a carpetbagger and war profiter cultureencouraged outside the energy manipulation Enron culture and now the collapse of the Financial Services Sector due to a culure of recklessness borne of deregulation.

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Flashlight:

Palin debating was like a dog walking on it's hind legs: it wasn't done well, but you were surprised to see it being done at all.


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boomshak:

@Tarp Lazer:

Last time CNN did a post debate poll, they announced the party weightings (43% Dem, 29% Rep) and they got blasted for it.

This time, for some reason, NO PARTY WEIGHTINGS announced.

How odd? Wonder why? Lol.

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NHBlue:

No... Wait! I've got it. He's Grandpa Simpson!

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chesirecat47:

McCain UP in Minnesota per SurveyUSA

47-46

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vmval1:

Why is the Ras late?

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sherman:

I'm certainly not voting for Obama now. Joe Biden told me that Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska and he lied because what she really did was change the tax code so that oil companies had to pay more taxes to Alaska.

That did it for me...I'm voting for McCain!!!

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boomshak:

BTW, did any of you guys see O'Reily go NUTS on Barney Frank last night? Good God!

That was some theatre right there. O'Reillt was yelling at Frank and called him a COWARD to his face for denying any responsibility in the Fannie Mae fiasco.

Anyway, it was hilarious.

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sunnymi:

McCain campaign already backtracking on something their VP nominee said last night....

Palin Gets McCain Stance on Homeowner Protections Wrong
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/10/palin-misstates.html

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chesirecat47:

@Sherman. I'm SURE you were undecided before last night

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Tarp Lazer:

Boom - again, you just did it AGAIN. Seriously, this is atrocious. You post about 10 things on the Afghanistan-Iraq question. I post a rebuttal. You never respond. You called me out specifcally and asked me if I agreed with the statement - yes or no. So I said, no I do not, and posted a link. I then asked you what you thought. You simply realized I was right and ignored it since. You do this all day - post stuff, gets refuted, post new stuff, gets refuted, etc. It is an old and tired act at this point.

I've also asked you on numerous occassions - what do you intend to accomplish here? I mean, for the life of me I just can't figure it out. Is this just your only outlet? You aren't able to work on the GOP phonebacks or canvas for them? You seem like a dedicated partisan that could help them. They need you right now. Get off your ass and help them. You won't change ANY votes on this website. I just don't understand. All you do is disrupt the real discussion that tries to occur on here about polling. You have picked an odd website on which to spew your right-wing rhetoric. At least go to a more general political message board where you'd fit in. So again, I ask you, why here, to what end?

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boomshak:

@chesirecat47:
McCain UP in Minnesota per SurveyUSA

47-46

Really? Interesting but SUSA is all over the place. Let's look for confirmation.

None of the polls coming out today will reflect last night I dont believe.

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sherman:

Nah...I was just joshing. None of those points that Boom posted about how Biden lied...(LIED I TELL YOU!!) amount to a hill of beans.

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thoughtful:

Boom

Minn +1 McCain - interesting outlier or the one hope for the all in wrestler John McCain.

Watching Oreilly at the moment

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DecaturMark:

Ras 51 O 44 M

Same as yesterday

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Outsider:

New Rasmussen daily tracking O(53) M(43)

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carl29:

Why Rasmussen hasn't released today's poll. My guess? Obviously the debate's impact is not reflected in that poll, c'mon...the debate ended at 10:30 p.m when pollsters can't call people anymore, so Ras doesn't want to break his party's heart. Don't worry Ras we understand that today's numbers don't include your dear Sarah's impact. Release the numbers man :-)!!

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boomshak:

@Tarp,

I'm not ignoring you. It's just that you aren't very important to me.

During the debate, Biden said:

"we've spent less in Afghanistan in seven years than we spend in a month in Iraq"

That's a lie.

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Outsider:

sorry ignore my previous post.

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thoughtful:

+8% is my guess but could it actually be 9% to Obama

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boomshak:

@Outsider:

New Rasmussen daily tracking O(53) M(43)

That's for NH, not national.

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Dana Adini:

Boom you guys didnt coach her on BK. When she weas asked Never answer the question on Pakistan. Her answers were scripted. Who was she winking at?

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Unbiased08:

Very good new poll for McCain...the first in a couple weeks.

SurveyUSA has McCain +1 in MN. Look to see McCain make a MAJOR push for MN because he really needs it. Earlier in the week, CNN/TIME has Obama +11 in MN so one of these two polls has to be wrong. My guess is that Obama has a lead in that state, but this SurveyUSA poll casts doubt on it being a substantial one.

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carl29:

Guys, you all saw Rasmussen's numbers in NH. Well, Ras is not the only one showing Obama with a healthy lead in the Granite state.

"NEW HAMPSHIRE: A new poll by the New Hampshire Institute of Politics at Saint Anselm College has Obama up 12 points over McCain, 49%-37%"

I've been suspecious that NH will see the current McCain in the same light that they did to the former McCain- from 2000 and beginning of 2008.

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thoughtful:

Well its +7% no change

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Dana Adini:

my last post got messed up. She was asked about BK by gwenn Ifill she said "yes. but on energy....."

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1magine:

Ladies and getlmanen - you know if you just ignore boomy woomy from this point out - he and Sydney's campaign will just go away.

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squaredrive:

Here you go boomshack, tarp's link from NPR:

BIDEN:

Look, we have spent more money -- we spend more money in three weeks on combat in Iraq than we've spent on the entirety of the last seven years that we have been in Afghanistan building that country. Let me say it again. Three weeks in Iraq; seven years -- seven years, or six and a half years, in Afghanistan.

Senator Biden appears to be contrasting the spending on combat operations in Iraq with the spending on reconstruction and other diplomatic activities ("building that country"). Over seven years (not including FY 09), according to the Congressional Research Service, the United States has spent $11.8 billion on foreign aid and diplomatic operations in Afghanistan. The Pentagon in FY 08 has spent $145 billion in Iraq. This works out to about $8.4 billion per three week period.

Also, the misleading statements were a 2-way street, Palin played fast and loose with the truth also. See http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_biden-palin_debate.html.

____________________

tjampel:

@boomshak:

OK....now as to the Poll we're here to discuss...(I think this site is about polls)

IS IT:

Rasmussen....FAIL!!!

GWU BATTLEGROUND---are you kidding....FAIL!!!!

or...McCain...FAIL?

We're running out of days for game changers. The game needs to change here and now. Did Palin's scripted shallow performance convince people concerned about losing jobs, houses, and health benefits? They'll be voting on that, not on whether Palin is effective as a perky, folksy Fargo-esque cheerleader for John McCain or whether she's cooler cuz she gives a big shout-out to someone on national TV, or because she reads her index cards very well to give scripted responses to questions that weren't asked and non-responses to questions outside her comfort zone.

In short if America is moved to vote for John McCain, given all the problems this country faces, none of which are cosmetic, it deserves him. But America isn't that stupid, or so it now appears, and these two NH polls are starting to bear this out.

I've been to NH many times and have hiked up Mt Washington on 7 occasions (highest peak in the NE at 6288 ft). I love the people of NH, independent, but never jingoistic, intolerant, or shallow.

____________________

Tarp Lazer:

You can't even quote correctly. Talk about what is an is not a lie. How do you not quote something, put it in quotes, and pass it off as fact and not call it a lie. If you had READ my link, you would have found the ACTUAL quote.

"Look, we have spent more money -- we spend more money in three weeks on combat in Iraq than we've spent on the entirety of the last seven years that we have been in Afghanistan building that country. Let me say it again. Three weeks in Iraq; seven years -- seven years, or six and a half years, in Afghanistan."

BUILDING THAT COUNTRY. He is not talking about DEFENSE spending. Get a clue man.

Also, if I was not that important to you, you would not keep responding. Responding by saying I am not that important to you is sort of the ultimate avoidance move. It demonstrates a complete lack faith in any real answer that you could provide.

Now if you will excuse me, I have a life, and will be heading to it. Continue to spew your bs in hopes of changing the election on Pollster.com - I'm sure you've made a hell of a differene thus far.

____________________

thoughtful:

RCP has dropped the GWU Battleground poll from their latest polls and averages.

It was up this mornong and now its down!

Was up when it was ="% McCain outlier I think Nate Silver is absolutely right RCP is a subjective cherry pick average.

The averages at Pollster include all polls which seems to me to be the best way to look at averages.

____________________

sunnymi:


Rasmussen's 3-day rolling average for today
51(O)-44(M)

Last 3 nights must have been as follows:
44(M)-48(O)
46(M)-51(O)
42(M)-54(O)

____________________

carl29:

Folks, Real Clear Politics is a conservative website. Of course they want to make things the best for McCain.

____________________

js:

@boomshak

You just lied a lot.

1. The tax lie has been debunked countless times. Go look up the non-binding resolution that you're referring to and come back when you understand it.

2. Obama said he would meet with the leader of Iran. Ahmadinejad has no authority to negotiate treaties or effect the national defense in Iran, and Biden explained that in his answer.

3. Biden never said he was for additional offshore drilling in the debate; he was referring the tens of millions of leased acres that are available for drilling now.

4. McCain voted against troop funding legislation containing timelines just as Obama voted against legislation not containing timelines. Go look up the bills and voting records.

5. Biden was obviously discussing clean coal versus traditional coal, which is clear when you note that he said China is "going to burn 300 years of bad coal unless we figure out how to clean their coal up." He also has a well established voting history of supporting clean coal.

6. McCain has voted over twenty times against alternative energy bills when you include the bills with mandates. That's what Biden was referring to.

7. John McCain's health care plan would tax employee health benefits, effectively negating the value of his tax credit for most families.

8. Palin instituted a windfall tax on oil companies this year. It's been widely reported. You can start by reading the following URL: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008103325_alaskatax07.html

9. General McKiernan (not McLellen) clearly stated that a counter-insurgency strategy like the one used in Iraq would not be adequate to address the problems in Afghanistan--problems that the Iraq war exasperated. And your lie about the funding of Iraq versus Afghanistan is transparently false. Biden very clearly stated that it was money spent "rebuilding Afghanistan."

10. McCain spent most of his political career arguing against regulation, and his minimal efforts against Freddie and Fannie were little more than partisan posturing. No spin you put on it can change the man's 25+ year history of deregulation, or that deregulator in chief Phil Gramm wrote McCain's economic policy.

11. Watch Biden's speech on the floor before the Iraq invasion. He never supported regime change; he voted to enforce the UN mandate. And Biden has consistently differed from McCain on how to prosecute the war.

12. Biden said American families making less than $250k wouldn't see a tax increase. The context is quite clear.

13. How can you claim that the rescue plan hasn't been coordinated at all with members of the G-20? You have no proof at all of that statement and are simply grasping at straws.

14. Tax rates won't be higher than they were under Reagan, and that's why you can't cite any examples.

____________________

thoughtful:

07:36Morning shows dominated by VP debate 07:36Wells Fargo acquiring Wachovia for $15.1 billion 07:30GWU/Battleground: Obama 50, McCain 4306:20Obama ad "can't explain" shows Biden on healthcare

GWU now showing at 49 46!!!

____________________

MNLatteLiberal:

The only guffaw by Biden last night was "Bosniacs". Whoever they are. But it's cute. And Palin came off, if anything, too cutesy. I agree with carl29's appraisal (wow, what a surprise there :)

In addition to my debate postmortem comments in the previous poll thread, I would add the following observation on how the two campaigns did their homework deciphering the undecided demos.

Palin spoke to the hockey moms, soccer moms on the sidelines and Joe-sixpacks. That's from the 2000 script. That's stale marketing. And, as a result of that, every time she went on the attack with that wretched plastic smile, the undecided meter flattened out, especially the women (I am talking about the CNN live tracker of the undecideds in Ohio). The women meter was VERY sensitive, men lagged, but followed the overall trend.

Whenever Palin went to her talking points, the response was flat. The prepackaged zingers (white flag of surrender, there you go again, joe, say it isn't so, joe) also fell flat. And she made sure apriori, before the debate that it'll be ok to call him Joe too. A swing and a miss. Three times. She's out. Just goes to show you, Tina Fey can do Palin better than Palin can do herself. I bet when Tina delivers these, she'll get a better laugh. And she'd have moved the meter too.

Bottom line: you can't stuff 90 minutes worth of talking points into a 60 minute head and expect the stuff to stick and to be regurgitated at the right time with proper timing. A cheerleader? Perhaps in a Tracy Flick sort of way. (If anyone wants to see Palin portrayed by Reese Witherspoon, I'd advise you to rent "Election" - a truly prophetic movie when it comes to Sarah). But not a President.

Biden's appeal to the undecideds, based on the CNN meter again, was decidedly better. The women ate his stuff up. Obama campaign clearly did their homework better.

I have a problem with Ifill bending over backwards for the right and not keeping after Palin to answer question and letting her get away with that non-answer on civil unions.

____________________

carl29:

RealClearPolitics is a Chicago-based political news aggregator, polling data aggregator, and blog founded in 2000 by former options trader John McIntyre and former advertising agency account executive Tom Bevan.

"In an interview with the conservative magazine Human Events, McIntyre described the philosophy behind the website as based on "freedom" and "common-sense values." Said Bevan, "We think debate on the issues is a very important thing. We post a variety of opinions." He further stated, "we have a frustration all conservatives have", which is "the bias in media against conservatives, religious conservatives, [and] Christian conservatives."

____________________

Dana Adini:

Rasmussen

o 51
m 44

____________________

Napoleon Complex:

This is a couple of weeks old, but it’s relevant in light of Palin’s gaffe last night when she agreed with Dick Cheney that the office of the Vice Presidency is also part of the legislative branch.

http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/tucker/stories/2008/09/21/tucked_0921.html

____________________

sunnymi:


Did you guys notice that GW/Battleground has changed its latest results to 49(O)-46(M)!

____________________

cinnamonape:

Apparently Boom and his Repug myrmidons have a little ADD. Biden said that the US spends more on COMBAT in three weeks in Iraq than it has on RECONSTRUCTION in 6.5 years in Afghanistan.

That's absolutely true!

Ending combat in Iraq is essential to creating a civil economy in Afganistan and doing things like ending the opium trade which fuels al Qaida.

____________________

vmval1:

What the hell is going on with GWU/Battleground??

____________________

thoughtful:

@ PH Staff

What is this poll 50%-43% or 49%-46% and if its the latter how did this mis-report happen?

____________________

Tyler:

"The previous results were not nearly favorable enough to McCain, therefore..."

____________________

vmval1:

I bet they posted last nights result only.

____________________

Flashlight:

@ js,

You are a very patient and generous person to try and give facts to Boomshak, however he is completely allergic to them.


____________________

metsmets:

Wow! As fast as this poll changes, McCain will be ahead in an hour and heading for a landslide by midday...OOPS!

____________________

cinnamonape:

Boom: "boomshak:

"his voice breaking emotionally towards the end"
His voice "breaks emotionally" on cue every time he tells that story."

Boom you are pathetic. Are you saying that Biden doesn't actually have emotional loss at the loss of his wife and son in that auto accident. You are utterly grotesque.

____________________

Unbiased08:

Any poll that mis-reports its results by 4 points should be automatically disqualified from consideration. There are a ton of pollsters tracking the race at this point, so there is no reason to include pollsters who clearly have no idea what they're doing.

____________________

Republicans=Ignorance:

LOL

This poll is a joke.

____________________

Dana Adini:

got this from a friend. not sure how credible it is:

MY HOLIDAY WITH JOHN McCAIN

It was just before John McCain's last run at the presidential nomination in 2000
that my husband and I vacationed in Turtle Island in Fiji with John McCain,
Cindy, and their children, including Bridget (their adopted Bangladeshi child).

It was not our intention, but it was our misfortune, to be in close quarters
with John McCain for almost a week, since Turtle Island has a small number of
bungalows and their focus on communal meals force all vacationers who are there
at the same time to get to know each other intimately.

He arrived at our first group meal and started reading quotes from a pile of
William Faulkner books with a forest of Post-Its sticking out of them. As an
English Literature major myself, my first thought was "if he likes this so much,
why hasn't he memorized any of this yet?"

I soon realized that McCain actually thought we had come on vacation to be a
volunteer audience for his "readings" which then became a regular part of each
meal. Out of politeness, none of the vacationers initially prot
ested at this
intrusion into their blissful holiday, but people's buttons definitely got
pushed as the readings continued day after day.

Unfortunately this was not his only contribution to our mealtime entertainment.
He waxed on during one meal about how Indo-Chine women had the best figures and
that our American corn-fed women just couldn't meet up to this standard. He also
made it a point that all of us should stop Cindy from having dessert as her
weight was too high and made a few comments to Amy, the 25 year old wife of the
honeymooning couple from Nebraska that she should eat less as she needed to lose
weight.

McCain's appreciation of the beauty of Asian women was so great that David the
American economist had to move his Thai wife to the other side of the table from
McCain as McCain kept aggressively flirting with and touching her.

Needless to say I was irritated at his large ego and his rude behavior towards
his wife and other women, but decided he must have some redeeming qualities as
he had adopted a handicapped child from Bangladesh. I asked him about this one
day, and his response was shocking: "Oh, that was Cindy's idea – I didn't have
anything to do with it. She just went and adopted this thing without even asking
me. You can't imagine how people stare when I wheel this ugly, black thing
around in a shopping cart in Arizona. No, it wasn't my idea at a
ll."

I actively avoided McCain after that, but unfortunately one day he engaged me in
a political discussion which soon got us on the topic of the active US bombing
of Iraq at that time. I was shocked when he said, "If I was in charge, I would
nuke Iraq to teach them a lesson". Given McCain's personal experience with the
horrors of war, I had expected a more balanced point of view. I commented on the
tragic consequences of the nuclear attacks on Japan during WWII – but no, he was
not to be dissuaded. He went on to say that if it was up to him he would have
dropped many more nuclear bombs on Japan. I rapidly extricated myself from this
conversation as I could tell that his experience being tortured as a POW didn't
seem to have mellowed out his perspective, but rather had made him more
aggressive and vengeful towards the world.

My final encounter with McCain was on the morning that he was leaving Turtle
Island. Amy and I were happily eating pancakes when McCain arrived and told Amy
that she shouldn't be having pancakes because she needed to lose weight. Amy
burst into tears at this abusive comment. I felt fiercely protective of Amy
and immediately turned to McCain and told him to leave her alone. He became
very angry and abusive towards me, and said, "Don't you know who I am." I ooked
him in the face and said, "Yes, you are the biggest asshole I have ever m
et" and
headed back to my cabin. I am happy to say that later that day when I arrived
at lunch I was given a standing ovation by all the guests for having stood up to
McCain's bullying.

Although I have shared my McCain story informally with friends, this is the
first time I am making this public. I almost did so in 2000, when McCain first
announced his bid for the Republican nomination, but it soon became apparent
that George Bush was the shoo-in candidate and so I did not act then. However,
now that there is a very real possibility that McCain could be elected a s our
next president, I feel it is my duty as an American citizen to share this story.
I can't imagine a more scary outcome for America than that this abusive,
aggressive man should lead our nation. I have observed him in intimate
surroundings as he really is, not how the media portrays him to be. If his
attitudes toward women and his treatment of his own family are even a small
indicator of his real personality, then I shudder to think what will happen to
America were he to be elected as our President.
--
Mary-Kay Gamel
Professor of Classics, Comparative Literature, and Theater Arts
Cowell College
University of California, Santa Cruz
Santa Cruz, California 95064
831-459-2381 (office); 831-429-8803 (home)
mkgamel@ucsc.edu

____________________

Unbiased08:

correction - misreports its results by SEVEN points.

____________________

[nemesis]:

MNLatteLiberal:

"The only guffaw by Biden last night was "Bosniacs". Whoever they are. But it's cute. "

Actually, Biden knew exactly what he was talking about, and used the proper term, which I'm sure Palin hasn't even heard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks

____________________

douglasfactors:

MNLatteLiberal:

Bosniaks is the correct term.

____________________

thoughtful:

After New Hampshire returns to te fold, (but before Minn goes +1% McCain and this Poll becomes an outlier again!

"There are currently six states in the Toss-Up category—Colorado, Florida, North Carolina, Nevada, Ohio, and Virginia. If Obama were to win all the states that are currently leaning in his direction, he would need to win only one of those six toss-up states to become the nation’s next President." Rasmussen Reports 10/03/08.

____________________

tjampel:

Absolutely great article in Ras on Democratic registration in key states:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/political_commentary/commentary_by_rhodes_cook/democrats_winning_the_registration_wars

This is must reading if you want to be able to engage in any serious discussion about the effects of registration this year

____________________

pbcrunch:

That Ras article on Dem registration lost me when he called the Bradley Effect "substantial" or something like that.

____________________

Tyler:

@vmval1

You're almost certainly right about that. 50/43 sounds like a perfectly reasonable nightly in a tracker averaging to 49/46.

The cool part about that if it's true is that it means that Obama is continuing to increase his lead, rather than leveling off.

____________________

Trosen:

Ok.. here we go.. fact checking the fact checking.. Hold on folks...

boomshak:
JUST A SMATTERING OF BIDEN'S FIBBERATIONS FROM LAST NIGHT:

1. TAX VOTE: Biden said McCain voted “the exact same way” as Obama to increase taxes on Americans earning just $42,000, but McCain DID NOT VOTE THAT WAY.

This is referring to a provision (NOT in his current tax proposal) that would be a 3% tax increase for SINGLE TAXPAYER (not the mommy with 2 kids like the McCains ads show) that was in line with pre-Bush tax cuts. This would also be AFTER all deductions and exclusions. And how much would it amount to for a person making 41,500 in taxable income? wait for it.. $15. So did McCain not vote for the same proposal? Maybe, but it's pretty damn irrelevant. Especially when looking at THIS:

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/1031678,obamamccaintaxplans.article (be sure to check your tax bracket)


2. AHMADINEJAD MEETING: Joe Biden lied when he said that Barack Obama never said that he would sit down unconditionally with Mahmoud Embanked of Iran. Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe Biden attacked him for it.

Never said "unconditionally," Said without certain pre-conditions.. meaning Obama would not say "you have to do this, this, this, and this or we're not sitting down to talk." That's not how diplomacy works, folks. And guess what high-level Bush Administration officials are doing RIGHT NOW? Meeting with Iran's leadership without pre-conditions. Doh! So argue about the language of you want, but the inference is that Obama wants to have Achmidenijad, Castro, and Kim Jung-Il over for tea and scones. Anyone with a brain knows that's not the case.


3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING: Biden said, “Drill we must.” But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to “raping” the Outer Continental Shelf.”

Yes, Biden, like many others, has twisted in the wind on this to adjust to popular sentiment. You are right there.

4. TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same way against funding the troops in the field. John McCain opposed a bill that included a timeline, that the President of the United States had already said he would veto regardless of it’s passage.

He no more lied when MCain runs attack ads and uses talking points saying Obama "cut off funding to our troops." It's a weak, emotion-grabbing talking point. Anytime anyone votes against a military spending package they are "cutting off funding to the troops and hate America." If you want to use that verbiage, then McCain hates America too. Grow up.

5. OPPOSING CLEAN COAL: Biden says he’s always been for clean coal, but he just told a voter that he is against clean coal and any new coal plants in America and has a record of voting against clean coal and coal in the U.S. Senate.

Yes, Biden put his foot in his mouth on this one. But his voting record for clean fuel alternatives is strong.

6. ALTERNATIVE ENERGY VOTES: According to FactCheck.org, Biden is exaggerating and overstating John McCain’s record voting for alternative energy when he says he voted against it 23 times.

Yea.. maybe it was 21, or 22. But he sure as hell likes voting against it.

http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2008/08/23/mccain-energy-summit/

7. HEALTH INSURANCE: Biden falsely said McCain will raise taxes on people’s health insurance coverage — they get a tax credit to offset any tax hike. Independent fact checkers have confirmed this attack is false

No, he did not. That tax credit comes at the expense of TAXING THE HEALTH BENEFITS your employer provides. And guess what.. if you or a family member get seriously injured, or ill, and have to spend a week or more in the hospital or god forbid need major surgery, you think $5000 covers it?

8. OIL TAXES: Biden falsely said Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska — she reformed the state tax and revenue system, it’s not a windfall profits tax.

Splitting hairs. Palin didn't seem to mind much as that was more or less a "we agree" moment. Windfall profits tax/reform tax revenue system.. boo hoo.

9. AFGHANISTAN / GEN. MCKIERNAN COMMENTS: Biden said that top military commander in Iraq said the principles of the surge could not be applied to Afghanistan, but the commander of NATO’s International Security Assistance Force Gen. David D. McKiernan said that there were principles of the surge strategy, including working with tribes, that could be applied in Afghanistan.

Yea Biden left that part out, but so did Palin to Biden's point. She just said "We can use the same Iraq Surge strategy." They are both guilty of parsing facts if you want to go that route. But kudos to the fact-checker for not calling him General McLellan.

10. REGULATION: Biden falsely said McCain weakened regulation — he actually called for more regulation on Fannie and Freddie.

Oh boy.. is this one weak. hooray, McCain stepped up once and called for some oversight.. whoopee.. I guess that cancels out all this:

Q: In 1999, you were one of the senators who helped pass deregulation of Wall Street. Do you regret that now?

McCAIN: No. I think the deregulation was probably helpful to the growth of our economy.

McCain Is An Avid Supporter Of Lax Rules For Financial Institutions
McCain Supported A Banking Bill Because It Eliminated “The Tremendous Regulatory Burden Imposed On Financial Institutions.” While speaking in favor of bank deregulation on the floor of the senate, John McCain said, “This legislation takes a small but important step toward eliminating the tremendous regulatory burden imposed on financial institutions… One principal reason banks are unable to make loans is the bewildering array of statutory and regulatory restrictions and paperwork requirements imposed by Congress and the regulatory agencies. While a case can certainly be made that every law and regulation is intended to serve a laudable purpose, the aggregate effect of the rapidly increasing regulatory burden imposed on banks is to cause them to devote substantial time, energy and money to compliance rather than meeting the credit needs of the community.” [Congressional Record, 11/19/93; emphasis added]

I don’t think anyone who wants to increase the burden of government regulation and higher taxes has any real understanding of economics and the economy and what is needed in order to ensure the future of this country.”
– John McCain [McCain Town Hall in Inez, Kentucky, 4/23/08]

McCain Supported A Bill To “Takes A Small Step Forward Toward Eliminating Unnecessary Regulatory Burdens Imposed On Banks.” While speaking in favor of bank deregulation on the floor of the senate, John McCain said, “While a case can certainly be made that every law and regulation is intended to serve a laudable purpose, the aggregate effect of the rapidly increasing regulatory burden imposed on banks is to cause them to devote substantial time, energy and money to compliance rather than meeting the credit needs of the community … This bill recognizes this fact, and takes a small step forward toward eliminating unnecessary regulatory burdens imposed on banks.” [Congressional Record, 11/19/93; emphasis added]

In early 1995 … McCain promoted a moratorium on federal regulations of all kinds. 'I’m always for less regulation,' he told The Wall Street Journal last March…. 'I am fundamentally a deregulator.'

I could go on and on and on.. but you get the point.. Don't go there. You'll lose... badly.

11. IRAQ: When Joe Biden lied when he said that John McCain was “dead wrong on Iraq”, because Joe Biden shared the same vote to authorize the war and differed on the surge strategy where they John McCain has been proven right.

No.. he was dead right. Biden wasn't talking about the "surge." (and yes, admittedly, Obama and Biden are avoiding that). But McCain was in lock-step with Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, etc with the whole, "this will be easy, not cost too much, greet us with candy and flowers, W.M.D!! crowd. and yea, he was DEAD WRONG ON ALL OF THAT... You think the American public would have been for this war at the outset if they had an idea of the real cost-benefit outcome of this war?? Not to mention the gross mishandling for the first 5 years of it?

In fact, during the run-up to war in 2002 and 2003, McCain repeatedly described the prospects of war in the rosiest terms, declaring the U.S. would “win easily”:

“Because I know that as successful as I believe we will be, and I believe that the success will be fairly easy, we will still lose some American young men or women.” [CNN, 9/24/02]

“We’re not going to get into house-to-house fighting in Baghdad. We may have to take out buildings, but we’re not going to have a bloodletting of trading American bodies for Iraqi bodies.” [CNN, 9/29/02]

“But the point is that, one, we will win this conflict. We will win it easily.” [MSNBC, 1/22/03]

RUSSERT: Go back, Senator, to 2002. The administration saying we would be greeted as liberators. John McCain saying you thought success would be fairly easy.

MCCAIN: It was.

RUSSERT: In all honesty…

MCCAIN: It was easy, it was easy. I said the military operation would be easy. It was easy. We were greeting as liberators. Look at the films of when we rolled into Baghdad.

12. TAX INCREASES: Biden said Americans earning less than $250,000 wouldn’t see higher taxes, but the Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more.

That's right (sorta) if you are an INDIVIDUAL (not a family mind you) making 250K or more , you will pay more tax. About as much as you paid (percentage-wise) under that pinkie commie liberal, Ronald Reagan.

13. BAILOUT: Biden said the economic rescue legislation matches the four principles that Obama laid out, but in reality it doesn’t meet two of the four principles that Obama outlined on Sept. 19, which were that it include an emergency economic stimulus package, and that it be part of “part of a globally coordinated effort with our partners in the G-20.”

The bailout hasn't passed yet. go after that one after a final bill is done and passed.

14. REAGAN TAX RATES: Biden is wrong in saying that under Obama, Americans won’t pay any more in taxes then they did under Reagan.

No he is not. this is a nice little trick that doesn't adjust for inflation. Look at percents instead of $ amounts. Nice try though.


____________________

boomshak:

@cinnamonape:
Boom: "boomshak:

"his voice breaking emotionally towards the end"
His voice "breaks emotionally" on cue every time he tells that story."

"Boom you are pathetic. Are you saying that Biden doesn't actually have emotional loss at the loss of his wife and son in that auto accident. You are utterly grotesque."

No, I am sure he feels a loss. But he makes a mockery of that loss when he does a staged tearful moment at the exact same spot every time he tells the story.

I mean, my dad died 5 years ago. A year after it happened, I could speak of it without cracking like Biden did. Now, I can speak about it quite calmly.

Nothing worse than using the death of a loved one as stagecraft.

____________________

boomshak:

"A year after it happened, I couldn't speak of it without cracking like Biden did. Now, I can speak about it quite calmly."

(I really need to start proof-reading :)

____________________

mac_1103:

Rasmussen is up at 51-44.

"Right direction" question down to 10%.

____________________

Trosen:

Ok.. here we go.. fact checking the fact checking.. Hold on folks...


boomshak:
JUST A SMATTERING OF BIDEN'S FIBBERATIONS FROM LAST NIGHT:


1. TAX VOTE: Biden said McCain voted “the exact same way” as Obama to increase taxes on Americans earning just $42,000, but McCain DID NOT VOTE THAT WAY.

This is referring to a provision (NOT in his current tax proposal) that would be a 3% tax increase for SINGLE TAXPAYER (not the mommy with 2 kids like the McCains ads show) that was in line with pre-Bush tax cuts. This would also be AFTER all deductions and exclusions. And how much would it amount to for a person making 41,500 in taxable income? wait for it.. $15. So did McCain not vote for the same proposal? Maybe, but it's pretty damn irrelevant. Especially when looking at THIS:

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/1031678,obamamccaintaxplans.article (be sure to check your tax bracket)


2. AHMADINEJAD MEETING: Joe Biden lied when he said that Barack Obama never said that he would sit down unconditionally with Mahmoud Embanked of Iran. Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe Biden attacked him for it.

Never said "unconditionally," Said without certain pre-conditions.. meaning Obama would not say "you have to do this, this, this, and this or we're not sitting down to talk." That's not how diplomacy works, folks. And guess what high-level Bush Administration officials are doing RIGHT NOW? Meeting with Iran's leadership without pre-conditions. Doh! So argue about the language of you want, but the inference is that Obama wants to have Achmidenijad, Castro, and Kim Jung-Il over for tea and scones. Anyone with a brain knows that's not the case.


3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING: Biden said, “Drill we must.” But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to “raping” the Outer Continental Shelf.”

Yes, Biden, like many others, has twisted in the wind on this to adjust to popular sentiment. You are right there.

4. TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same way against funding the troops in the field. John McCain opposed a bill that included a timeline, that the President of the United States had already said he would veto regardless of it’s passage.

He no more lied when MCain runs attack ads and uses talking points saying Obama "cut off funding to our troops." It's a weak, emotion-grabbing talking point. Anytime anyone votes against a military spending package they are "cutting off funding to the troops and hate America." If you want to use that verbiage, then McCain hates America too. Grow up.

5. OPPOSING CLEAN COAL: Biden says he’s always been for clean coal, but he just told a voter that he is against clean coal and any new coal plants in America and has a record of voting against clean coal and coal in the U.S. Senate.

Yes, Biden put his foot in his mouth on this one. But his voting record for clean fuel alternatives is strong.

6. ALTERNATIVE ENERGY VOTES: According to FactCheck.org, Biden is exaggerating and overstating John McCain’s record voting for alternative energy when he says he voted against it 23 times.

Yea.. maybe it was 21, or 22. But he sure as hell likes voting against it.

http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2008/08/23/mccain-energy-summit/

7. HEALTH INSURANCE: Biden falsely said McCain will raise taxes on people’s health insurance coverage — they get a tax credit to offset any tax hike. Independent fact checkers have confirmed this attack is false

No, he did not. That tax credit comes at the expense of TAXING THE HEALTH BENEFITS your employer provides. And guess what.. if you or a family member get seriously injured, or ill, and have to spend a week or more in the hospital or god forbid need major surgery, you think $5000 covers it?

8. OIL TAXES: Biden falsely said Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska — she reformed the state tax and revenue system, it’s not a windfall profits tax.

Splitting hairs. Palin didn't seem to mind much as that was more or less a "we agree" moment. Windfall profits tax/reform tax revenue system.. boo hoo.

9. AFGHANISTAN / GEN. MCKIERNAN COMMENTS: Biden said that top military commander in Iraq said the principles of the surge could not be applied to Afghanistan, but the commander of NATO’s International Security Assistance Force Gen. David D. McKiernan said that there were principles of the surge strategy, including working with tribes, that could be applied in Afghanistan.

Yea Biden left that part out, but so did Palin to Biden's point. She just said "We can use the same Iraq Surge strategy." They are both guilty of parsing facts if you want to go that route. But kudos to the fact-checker for not calling him General McLellan.

10. REGULATION: Biden falsely said McCain weakened regulation — he actually called for more regulation on Fannie and Freddie.

Oh boy.. is this one weak. hooray, McCain stepped up once and called for some oversight.. whoopee.. I guess that cancels out all this:

Q: In 1999, you were one of the senators who helped pass deregulation of Wall Street. Do you regret that now?

McCAIN: No. I think the deregulation was probably helpful to the growth of our economy.

McCain Is An Avid Supporter Of Lax Rules For Financial Institutions
McCain Supported A Banking Bill Because It Eliminated “The Tremendous Regulatory Burden Imposed On Financial Institutions.” While speaking in favor of bank deregulation on the floor of the senate, John McCain said, “This legislation takes a small but important step toward eliminating the tremendous regulatory burden imposed on financial institutions… One principal reason banks are unable to make loans is the bewildering array of statutory and regulatory restrictions and paperwork requirements imposed by Congress and the regulatory agencies. While a case can certainly be made that every law and regulation is intended to serve a laudable purpose, the aggregate effect of the rapidly increasing regulatory burden imposed on banks is to cause them to devote substantial time, energy and money to compliance rather than meeting the credit needs of the community.” [Congressional Record, 11/19/93; emphasis added]

I don’t think anyone who wants to increase the burden of government regulation and higher taxes has any real understanding of economics and the economy and what is needed in order to ensure the future of this country.”
– John McCain [McCain Town Hall in Inez, Kentucky, 4/23/08]

McCain Supported A Bill To “Takes A Small Step Forward Toward Eliminating Unnecessary Regulatory Burdens Imposed On Banks.” While speaking in favor of bank deregulation on the floor of the senate, John McCain said, “While a case can certainly be made that every law and regulation is intended to serve a laudable purpose, the aggregate effect of the rapidly increasing regulatory burden imposed on banks is to cause them to devote substantial time, energy and money to compliance rather than meeting the credit needs of the community … This bill recognizes this fact, and takes a small step forward toward eliminating unnecessary regulatory burdens imposed on banks.” [Congressional Record, 11/19/93; emphasis added]

In early 1995 … McCain promoted a moratorium on federal regulations of all kinds. 'I’m always for less regulation,' he told The Wall Street Journal last March…. 'I am fundamentally a deregulator.'

I could go on and on and on.. but you get the point.. Don't go there. You'll lose... badly.

11. IRAQ: When Joe Biden lied when he said that John McCain was “dead wrong on Iraq”, because Joe Biden shared the same vote to authorize the war and differed on the surge strategy where they John McCain has been proven right.

No.. he was dead right. Biden wasn't talking about the "surge." (and yes, admittedly, Obama and Biden are avoiding that). But McCain was in lock-step with Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, etc with the whole, "this will be easy, not cost too much, greet us with candy and flowers, W.M.D!! crowd. and yea, he was DEAD WRONG ON ALL OF THAT... You think the American public would have been for this war at the outset if they had an idea of the real cost-benefit outcome of this war?? Not to mention the gross mishandling for the first 5 years of it?

In fact, during the run-up to war in 2002 and 2003, McCain repeatedly described the prospects of war in the rosiest terms, declaring the U.S. would “win easily”:

“Because I know that as successful as I believe we will be, and I believe that the success will be fairly easy, we will still lose some American young men or women.” [CNN, 9/24/02]

“We’re not going to get into house-to-house fighting in Baghdad. We may have to take out buildings, but we’re not going to have a bloodletting of trading American bodies for Iraqi bodies.” [CNN, 9/29/02]

“But the point is that, one, we will win this conflict. We will win it easily.” [MSNBC, 1/22/03]

RUSSERT: Go back, Senator, to 2002. The administration saying we would be greeted as liberators. John McCain saying you thought success would be fairly easy.

MCCAIN: It was.

RUSSERT: In all honesty…

MCCAIN: It was easy, it was easy. I said the military operation would be easy. It was easy. We were greeting as liberators. Look at the films of when we rolled into Baghdad.


12. TAX INCREASES: Biden said Americans earning less than $250,000 wouldn’t see higher taxes, but the Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more.

That's right (sorta) if you are an INDIVIDUAL (not a family mind you) making 250K or more , you will pay more tax. About as much as you paid (percentage-wise) under that pinkie commie liberal, Ronald Reagan.

13. BAILOUT: Biden said the economic rescue legislation matches the four principles that Obama laid out, but in reality it doesn’t meet two of the four principles that Obama outlined on Sept. 19, which were that it include an emergency economic stimulus package, and that it be part of “part of a globally coordinated effort with our partners in the G-20.”

The bailout hasn't passed yet. go after that one after a final bill is done and passed.

14. REAGAN TAX RATES: Biden is wrong in saying that under Obama, Americans won’t pay any more in taxes then they did under Reagan.

No he is not. this is a nice little trick that doesn't adjust for inflation. Look at percents instead of $ amounts. Nice try though.

____________________

thoughtful:

Well

we go 48 - 46 3 days running with this poll, then 49-44 yesterday, now 49-46?

I can't see where the 50-43 came in with this poll, unless it was the day before's single day numbers couldn't have ben last nights.

I wont be including GWU in my tracker average tomorrow, stick to to the other 4, give this one another few days to settle down.

____________________

cinnamonape:

Boom: "1. TAX VOTE: Biden said McCain voted “the exact same way” as Obama to increase taxes on Americans earning just $42,000, but McCain DID NOT VOTE THAT WAY."

McCain voted for it in precisely the same way Obama did...it was a procedural vote (i.e. to bring the vote to the floor). It was not a vote to put the element into LAW. And Obama didn't support it later, either.

"2. AHMADINEJAD MEETING: Joe Biden lied when he said that Barack Obama never said that he would sit down unconditionally with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran. Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe Biden attacked him for it."
Obama said that any such meeting with Iranian officials would require "preparations". McCain insists that there can be no meetings at all until Ahmadjinedad agrees to preconditions that actually REQUIRE negotiations. For example, having Iran terminate its nuclear fuel production, as the Europeans have stated, requires negotiations...not an "unconditional demand" in order to succeed.

"3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING: Biden said, “Drill we must.” But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to “raping” the Outer Continental Shelf.”

Bidens position is that there are already off-shore leases that have not been exploited or even explored by the oil companies. Biden, as does Republican Gov. Crist and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, feels states should have the right to protect their coastlines from potentially-damaging oil drilling.

"4. TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same way against funding the troops in the field. John McCain opposed a bill that included a timeline, that the President of the United States had already said he would veto regardless of it’s passage. "

Biden didn't say they voted the "same way". He pointed out that McCain also opposed funding the troops IF it contained a timeline. True, McCain supported Bush's open-ended, potentially 100-year, occupation.

"5. OPPOSING CLEAN COAL: Biden says he’s always been for clean coal, but he just told a voter that he is against clean coal and any new coal plants in America and has a record of voting against clean coal and coal in the U.S. Senate."

Rubbish, Biden has consistently supported improved environmental standards at coal-burning power plants (i.e. "clean coal").

"6. ALTERNATIVE ENERGY VOTES: According to FactCheck.org, Biden is exaggerating and overstating John McCain’s record voting for alternative energy when he says he voted against it 23 times."

Actually McCain did vote 23 times against alternative energy. Some were unsuccessful attrepts to kill a bill, then he voted against the bill when it came up for a vote. So sometimes it was the same bill. If you want to take out the duplicate votes, fine...it was 16 times.

____________________

cinnamonape:

Boom claims: "7. HEALTH INSURANCE: Biden falsely said McCain will raise taxes on people’s health insurance coverage — they get a tax credit to offset any tax hike. Independent fact checkers have confirmed this attack is false."

Well...there are two McCain plans. In the original version not everyone would get a tax credit sufficient to cover the taxed coverage that they would lose when the "group plans" provided in contract negotiations with their employers were eliminated. Many people were going to lose coverage of $12K and only receive a $5K credit...thus would lose many of the benefits they had unless they paid the differential.

Then McCain altered the plan under the face of the exposed failings. But his revised plan is not, contrary to Palin, revenue balanced and "would not cost the taxpayer anything". In fact, on top of the taxes on the health care (which still exist but at lower levels), the Federal gov't outlay would be about $1.2 trilli8on dollars over the next ten years.

That's hardly revenue neutral.

____________________

cinnamonape:

"8. OIL TAXES: Biden falsely said Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska — she reformed the state tax and revenue system, it’s not a windfall profits tax."

It increased the taxes relative to the increased profits being generated by the oilo companies due to increased prices at the pump. The fact that it was done by the "State" doesn't mean it wasn't the equivalent of an excess profits tax. In addition, the Alaska tax system generates 95% of its revenue from taxes and leases on the oil and gas companies that pays for public healthcare, schools, universities, tuition, infrastrucure, etc. It even provides Alaskans with a $1300/person rebate check. That's serious taxation on corporations! It's much more of a Norwegian "socialist" system. Palin didn't institute it, as it was brought into being by a real Maverick Republican who didn't believe that public lands should be given away without a heavy price on corporations, and believed in a strong tax policy against wealthy corporations.

____________________

Trosen:

Sorry.. I didn't mean to post the same rebuttal twice.. it was meant for 2 different threads.

____________________

mac_1103:

problems that the Iraq war exasperated

We may be exasperated over the problems created by the Iraq war, but the war didn't exasperate the problems. ;-) Nothing personal, I just get a kick out of these sorts of malapropisms.

if you or a family member get seriously injured, or ill, and have to spend a week or more in the hospital or god forbid need major surgery, you think $5000 covers it?

This isn't quite accurate either. It's not a $5,000 credit for health care costs; it's a credit for buying health insurance. Decent coverage for a family of four costs a lot more than $5,000 a year. OTOH, a tax credit is worth more than a tax deduction, so if you're in the 25% bracket and your employer spends $1,000 a month on your medical coverage, you'll owe an extra $3,000 in tax and therefore come out $2,000 ahead with the credit. It's of course open to debate what good this does, since these are people who already have health insurance. The likely unintended consequence is that employers will feel justified in making their employees fork that extra $2k back over to pay for a bigger share of the insurance premiums. Or maybe that's an intended consequence, since it amounts to a subsidy for businesses big and small. (NOTE: This all assumes that everyone gets the credit, and not just people who have to buy their own insurance since they aren't covered by their employers. If that's the case, then McCain is simply taxing people who get health coverage through their jobs in order to fund people who don't.)

Further, a $5,000 tax credit won't help people who work at Wal-Mart buy very much health insurance, since they don't pay anywhere near $5,000 in federal income tax in the first place, and I haven't heard anything about the credit being refundable. Even if it is refundable, it's still not enough to pay for decent coverage for a family of four. And there is no way in hell that this is revenue neutral if the credit is refundable. Perhaps more importantly for those of you who consider yourselves conservative, it's pure wealth redistribution if the credit is refundable.

____________________

cinnamonape:

"9. AFGHANISTAN / GEN. MCKIERNAN COMMENTS: Biden said that top military commander in Iraq said the principles of the surge could not be applied to Afghanistan, but the commander of NATO’s International Security Assistance Force Gen. David D. McKiernan said that there were principles of the surge strategy, including working with tribes, that could be applied in Afghanistan."

McKiernan (Palin called him McClellan... Lincoln's abysmal Secretary of War that almost lost the Civil War,) DID say that a "surge" wouldn't work in Iraq. He did indicate that a moderate increase in troop levels was necessary. The involvement of tribal groups has ALWAYS been a part of the strategy in Iraq from the onset.

And the IRAQ surge (at least as expressed by Bush in 2006) did not include any provision to create "Awakening Councils". These, along with ethnic cleansing by both Sunni and Shias, have reduced the internal attacks. But that has not led to the main goal of the surge, which was political reconciliation.

"10. REGULATION: Biden falsely said McCain weakened regulation — he actually called for more regulation on Fannie and Freddie."

Actually McCain wrote a letter asking the officials within these corporations to look into their lending practices. He neither acted on these firms, never suggested any regulations, and failed to even seek a response. Essentially he was asking them to solve it themselves. Yeah...that worked!

____________________

cinnamonape:

Boom and the RNC Talking Points:
"12. TAX INCREASES: Biden said Americans earning less than $250,000 wouldn’t see higher taxes, but the Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more."

Biden said "households". Single taxpayers without dependents would have a tax increase above $200K.

"14. REAGAN TAX RATES: Biden is wrong in saying that under Obama, Americans won’t pay any more in taxes then they did under Reagan."

The tax rates would be less for the MIDDLE CLASS.


____________________

Eternal:

@ Boom..

You must not be a parent, if you were you would get it. I lost my father 1 year ago this week and can discuss it now. I *almost* lost my 18 year old son 15 years ago and still don't talk about it, if I had lost him I don't know that I would be here today.

A parent would understand....

I don't know how I would take my next breath...

Your comparison is apples and pick up trucks.

____________________

Mike In Maryland:

Where did boomshat get his list of '14 lies'?

Maybe at minx.cc? freerepublic? faustasblog.com? townhall.com? prolifeblogs.com? grizzlygroundswell.com? glocktalk.com? sternfannetwork.com? wordpress.com? michellemalkin.com? zimbio.com? ktkz.townhall.com? investorsiraq.com? memeorandum.com? gopachy.com? rockthetruth2.blogspot.com? libertynewsforum.com? gretawire.foxnews.com? noquarterusa.net?

Or maybe directly from the McLiar campaign, as reported by discardedlies.com?

No, I didn't look at any of those sites. I did a Google search on 'JOE BIDEN’S 14 LIES TONIGHT', and the above were in the first 30 of 'approximately 123,000' hits. My, those lying 'patriots' of the GO[L]P (Grumpy and Obsessively [Lying] Party) have been busy spreading their lies, lies and more lies.

The only question I have is which of the kool-aid drinking KooKKY sites did boomshat copy the lies from?

____________________

NeverMetAnHonestLib:

Trosen:
Cinnamon:

Can't you make your points without taking up so much space? Brevity is much more interesting. All this cutting and pasting is over the top.

____________________

NeverMetAnHonestLib:

I feel the winds shifting again. Thank you Sarah. You've given the libs a reason to be worried. Americans love authenticity, and you're as real as they come. Next week's polls will show the same bounce you gave us after the convention. You WILL be the first female President.

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VivalaRevolucion:

@ NeverMetAnHonestLib

Agree amigo .. Like Obama ( our Lord as he wants it to be), they go around the issue so you think they have a point when tehy are trying to lose the point .. Brevity is a virtue ...

____________________

Mike In Maryland:

Ah yes, our fake Latino (or is it Latina?) steps in and splatters his 'pearls of wisdom' and flattery. Problem is, since he has s*** for brains, he doesn't know that the 'pearls' are the same substance as his brains.

____________________

sotonightthatimightsee:

More good news for McCain at a time when he needs it!


SARAH BARRACUDA IS BACK!!!!!!!!!!

____________________

Trosen:

Good tactic, say my post is too long as an excuse not to read and to say I'm "avoiding the facts." Here's a better idea. Read my post and then contradict anything I said that you think is factually untrue.

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