Pollster.com

Articles and Analysis

 

US: Young Americans (Harvard 11/4-16)


Harvard / Knowledge Networks
11/4-16/09; 2,087 18-29 year olds, 2.2% margin of error
Mode: internet
(Harvard: release, toplines)

National

Obama Job Approval / Disapproval
58% Approve, 39% Disapprove
Health Care: 44 / 52
Federal Budget Deficit: 38 / 58
Afghanistan: 41 / 55
Economy: 44 / 52
Iran: 42 / 53

Job Approval / Disapproval
Dems in Congress: 48 / 49
Reps in Congress: 35 / 62

Among those who did anything to support Barack Obama in addition to voting:
Thinking ahead, how likely is it that you will engage in similar activities in 2012 for Barack Obama?
85% Very/Somewhat, 13% Not very/Not at all

Which comes closer to your opinion about what Congress and the President should do regarding health care reform this year?
48% They should continue trying to pass a major reform of the health care system
30% They should stop trying to pass a major reform this year and instead work on passing a more limited version
22% They should leave health care reform for another time

Now I'd like to ask you about some of the specific proposals being considered to address health care. Would you favor or oppose:

Requiring that all Americans have health insurance, with the government providing financial help for those who can't afford it:
60% Favor, 37% Oppose

A government health insurance plan to compete with private health insurance plans:
57% Favor, 39% Oppose

Requiring insurance companies to sell health coverage to people, even if they have pre-existing medical conditions:
76% Favor, 20% Oppose

Requiring employers to pay into a government health care fund if they do not provide health insurance to their employees:
63% Favor, 33% Oppose

Raising taxes on families with incomes of more than $350,000 as a way to pay for changes to the health care system:
59% Favor, 37% Oppose

Limits on the amount of money that patients can collect in medical malpractice lawsuits.
57% Favor, 39% Oppose

Would you favor or oppose a decision by President Obama to send more U.S. troops to Afghanistan?
31% Favor, 66% Oppose

 

Comments
Xenobion:

Well seems Obama still has the 18-29 Demographic down.

____________________

Field Marshal:

Harvard doing an internet poll? I thought they were smarter than that... haaaa haa!!

____________________

CUWriter:

No surprises here, except that somehow Obama's overall approval is pretty solid while his approval on EVERY ISSUE POLLED is negative. Seems like the youth equate "favorable opinion" to "job approval."

____________________

Stillow:

Obama's likability is holding his approval up. But just ask Bush, that only works for so long...eventually the disapproval of your policies catches up to you......

Doesn't matter anyway, internet polls are junk....put this one in the shredder next to zogby's internet polls.

____________________

Xenobion:

I would probably attribute that to the fact that this demographic probably has the most liberal segments of his voting bloc hoping for changes that probably won't happen, yet pleased to have someone somewhat representitive of their views.

____________________

obamalover:

@Stillow

Bush was also a disaster. It is truly amazing there still is a United States after his presidency.

And in regards to disapproval of his policies, when broken down they seem to be on board for every major health issue, but not for Afghanistan.

____________________

Xenobion:

Well the problem with internet polls is typically they aren't a good segment of the population. Considering this is after the 19-29 demographic its probably more accurate than most internet polls as Grandma doesn't know that its not a series of tubes.

____________________

Field Marshal:

I agree Stillow. Those numbers only spell disaster down the road for Obama if he doesn't do u-turn on some of these things. Favorability/likability versus issues; issues always win in the end.

I guess you can only campaign so long before you actually have to lead. He can't vote present any longer. Obviously, his ability to lead leaves a lot of people weary of him.

____________________

ChicagoKid:

My age group seems to need to figure out their issues, negative support for health care reform but positive support for individual health care policies that will increase the deficit and leave us paying for it, slamming up the debt. More attention needs to be paid.

"Truly amazing there still is a United States after Bush", Seems like Obama hasn't broken to far off the same path as Bush yet. Troop increase without much of an effective strategy and deficit running without looking at long term growth, seems the same to me.

____________________

Xenobion:

I really doubt he'll lose the 18-29 demographic which is what this Poll is about. I hope you realize this is the extreme left unhappy with Obama's current proposals so effectively doing a "U-TURN" would create even more unfavorability among these constituents.

____________________

obamalover:

@ChicagoKid

No. It means they are not susceptible to GOP propaganda like you are. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) said the House and Senate bills will reduce the deficit. How unfortunate that the facts are not consistent with your GOP nonsense.

Something that has strangely gone unnoticed is while yes he is increasing troops in Afghanistan, he is decreasing troops in Iraq by 90,000 before August of 2010. Imagine that: he is actually sending troops to places that attacked us instead of diverting troops to wild goose chases like Bush did.

____________________

ChicagoKid:

GOP propaganda? No, it's actually looking into the projections.... CBO only projects for 10 years, but the plans won't kick in till 2011 or 2013 I forgot which year, we will get taxed as the bill is passed but won't see benefits till the later dates. After 2019 its unknown how much it will cost. CBO also said premiums will rise. Taxing to pay for this program will fall short, because whenever you tax more you never hit the targeted revenue, unless your in the midst of a rapid growth period. The CBO has been wrong before and they will be wrong again.

I didn't say pulling troops or of Iraq was bad, its smart. There is no plan, Obama went for appeasing both sides instead of making a decision to either leave, or send the necessary amount of troops and supplies to execute the proper strategy.

____________________

obamalover:

ChicagoKid:

If it kicks in 2013 then that is 3-4 years from now, not 10. Does the GOP hate math also?

So you are saying even though it reduces the deficit within that 10 time frame somehow it will do a complete 180 and inflate the deficit, eventhough nothing will change from 2020 (last year of CBO's estimate) to 2021. Your argument is idiotic.

Again with the GOP propaganda. A recent MIT analysis says it will reduce healthcare costs.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1109/29959.html

Obama did lay out an exit strategy and a time table for withdraw. So he did make the decision to leave three years from now, but just not immediately. And General McChrystal said he likes and supports Obama's strategy. So I'm not really sure what you are talking about.

____________________

RussTC3:

ChicagoKid:

The CBO ALSO looked at years 11-20 and found that it would reduce the deficit by up to another $650 billion.

So: $127 Billion of deficit savings in the first 10 years and $650 billion over the next 10 for a total reduction of up to $777 billion over 20 years.

Nice try though.

____________________

Stillow:

X - Its not just the far left he is losing...its Indy's. Dems cannot lose Indy's 2 to 1 like they did in VA for example and expect to win. Obama needs to move back to the center. His base has pulled him to far left and you see that manifesting itself in polling. Indy's are always the key....there are not enough Dems or repubs to win elections. He is trying to govern a center-right country fro mthe far left....his polls will continue to drop if he keeps on this path. Over time his favorability will give way to his unpopular policies, much like it did for Bush.

____________________

Stillow:

Are you guys seriously debating numbers put out by the g'ment or CBO? Anything those guys put out is never accurate, things always cost waaaaaaaay more than they say and give much less benefit than they always say.......

____________________

ChicagoKid:

Yes... it kicks in 3 or 4 years from now, so your only getting 7 years of coverage, I figured you would be able to figure that one out on your own.
I am saying it will not reduce the deficit due to the fact price controlling has never worked, target revenue quotas for taxes are never hit as they increase unless there is rapid growth, and medicare is going to be politically hard to cut. You can never predict government entitlements because they grow to rapidly for a prediction. The predicted costs of medicare and medicaid were off by billions, It is bad economics.
I can rail off a bunch of articles by libertarians, conservatives, ivy league and other major university professors, think tanks, and other groups coming out against the plan also.
Obama ran on a peace platform, he added 30,000 troops. So we will fight for 3 years, then leave.... sounds like Iraq. A different method is needed to judge when it is time to leave and more troops are needed to execute plans for Afghanistan.

____________________

ChicagoKid:

Yes... it kicks in 3 or 4 years from now, so your only getting 7 years of coverage, I figured you would be able to figure that one out on your own.
I am saying it will not reduce the deficit due to the fact price controlling has never worked, target revenue quotas for taxes are never hit as they increase unless there is rapid growth, and medicare is going to be politically hard to cut. You can never predict government entitlements because they grow to rapidly for a prediction. The predicted costs of medicare and medicaid were off by billions, It is bad economics.
I can rail off a bunch of articles by libertarians, conservatives, ivy league and other major university professors, think tanks, and other groups coming out against the plan also.
Obama ran on a peace platform, he added 30,000 troops. So we will fight for 3 years, then leave.... sounds like Iraq. A different method is needed to judge when it is time to leave and more troops are needed to execute plans for Afghanistan.

____________________

Stillow:

Anyone who thinks this HCR package will reduce the deficit please come to my next garage sale. Just look at any other entitlement, they always cost more than projected, they all run there own deficits, they all are unsustainable long term.....hell look at medicare which is 36 trillion in the whole carried out long term.

Reducing the deficit............totally laughable.

____________________

ChicagoKid:

No chance of reduction, complete pipe dream, medicare, medicaid, and social security are all proof that predictions are not right.

____________________

obamalover:

@Chicago

Obama said in the primaries he would increase troops in Afghanistan. He said this in the general election as well, so I don't know what you are talking about. You are only hearing what you want to hear because the facts don't fit your delusions.

And there is nothing in the bill concerning price controls on private insurance companies. They are not mandating the insurance companies set their premiums at certain levels. So again you are being fooled by GOP propaganda.

____________________

RussTC3:

Fact: CBO says it will reduce the deficit by $127 billion over the first 10 years of the legislation and up to $650 billion over years 11-20 of the legislation for total reduction of $777 billion over the first 20 years of the legislation.

Opinion: It's a new entitlement program that will increase the deficit.

You can argue with the facts all you want, but at the end of the day, they're still facts.

____________________

ChicagoKid:

You are right, he did say he was open to increasing troops in Afghanistan. My problem is he went for appeasement instead of a full on strategy to gain an upper hand or leave. Bush did the same by splitting up forces in Afghanistan or Iraq.

Price controls mean a lot more then just capping private insurance. Price controls are in affect now with medicaid, by under paying the market you encourage hospitals and insurance companies to jack up prices on others. The same will continue with the HC bill once tax revenues and other cuts miss targets. Other sector costs will be controlled to give the gov the cheaper prices.

____________________

ChicagoKid:

Fact: Government backed and nominated people, (CBO) though "non-partisan" is gov supported, were wrong in predicting costs for medicare, medicaid, and social security.
0/3 is not looking so good, so I will go with history and past predictions that their "factual" predictions will be wrong, again.

____________________

Xenobion:

Its so much easier to just say it will increase the deficit rather than trust any credible source, otherwise I lose the argument. lol...

Can some conservative at least bring up something from the Heritage Foundation or CATO institute to counter the CBO? Do I have to do the work for you? lol

____________________

Field Marshal:

ChicagoKid,

Excellent posts and i agree entirely. The 18-29 age group is in no danger of being lost to the Reps (overall since i fall into that group and would never vote for a dem for prez).

However, they are in danger of not actually turning out to vote, especially in 2010 when Obama isn't on the ticket. I think with every passing day, the house has more and more chance of switching control next year.

And you're completely right regarding Health care. All along, its been the government driving up health care costs. Medicare/Medicaid say how much they are going to pay providers. They then continue to cut these reimbursements which forces providers to jack up reimbursements from private insurance to compensate. This bill accentuates the same dumb cycle and will just make things significantly worse. Anyone who doesn't see that doesn't want to see it. They have given in to the MSM/Dem propaganda. Sad too. Because when they realize it, it will be too late to vote Obama out because he was smart (devious) enough to not start it fully until AFTER the next prez election. Full-time campaigner, part-time (or less) executive.

____________________

ChicagoKid:

I was going to pull up the articles from CATO or the WSJ but there so nicely laid out i figured I didn't need to post anything. They have them all laid out under headings.

Its easy to say it will increase the deficit, because thats what will happen... It has happened multiple times before from the same people making the predictions ( Gov Sponsored agencies) so I guess they will be right this time.

A bill will probably get passed and I hope it makes a difference. But Ill remain a critic and a skeptic till it actually reduces the debt and covers more people, while the middle class somehow doesn't get screwed. If it succeeds ill be wrong.

____________________

ChicagoKid:

I was going to pull up the articles from CATO or the WSJ but there so nicely laid out i figured I didn't need to post anything. They have them all laid out under headings.

Its easy to say it will increase the deficit, because thats what will happen... It has happened multiple times before from the same people making the predictions ( Gov Sponsored agencies) so I guess they will be right this time.

A bill will probably get passed and I hope it makes a difference. But Ill remain a critic and a skeptic till it actually reduces the debt and covers more people, while the middle class somehow doesn't get screwed. If it succeeds ill be wrong.

____________________

Stillow:

X - cato actually has a report out showing it will cost nearly 7 trillion!!

You can argue numbers all you want, the bottom line is that the g'ment runs NOTHING within a budget, NOTHING that eventually does not require massive infusions of cash keep it sustained. The classic example sof Social security, medicare and medicaid are obvious....but the g'ment cannot even run the post office in the black. They cannot run education i nthe black...nothing....you can quote g'ment stats and cbo mumbo jumbo all you want facts are facts.....history doesn't lie and history tells us anythign the g'ment touches always leads to high prices, debt spending and puts on display for all to see the unsustainability of an entitlement.

Obama and the g'ment can't even keep reality tv wannabe's out of the white house, let alone run another multi trillion dollar entitleemnt like health care.

This mentality that g'ment is the answer is flawed....because they cannot run anything in the black.......history shows us this time and time and time and time and time and time again!

____________________

Stillow:

Its no secret to anyone who can think that g'ment is the cause of higher and higher medical costs across the board. G'ment insurance thru vehicles such as medicare and medicaid pay for an ever decreasing percentage of the bill for services they receive. That forces prices for the rest of us UP....becaus ethe doctors and hospitals have to make up the lack of g'ment payment somewhere......as usual, its g'ment that is the source of the problem.

____________________

ChicagoKid:

Field Marshall,
I am in the 18-29 group as well and I doubt I would ever vote for a Dem. Not to happy with the GOP and I have not been since I got into politics and such.

I agree, turnout will be low and 2010 and momentum will have to be high for 2012 to get young people doing lots of work for Obama.

I just don't have too much faith in the government running stuff anymore, since I look at what actually happens to budgets when they get involved.

____________________

Xenobion:

I don't really care if it goes off budget a bit. If it ends up increasing the deficit a bit, its an important moral obligation to get people insured. The point is that its starting out by cutting current government waste (plus the taxes of the ultra wealth 1%) and turning it into actual healthcare rather than nothing. Its a program I'd be fine to be taxed about.

You can't run many government agencies/services on a budget. Look at the military, there is a reason why we have the government run it and not have 3 billion little Blackwaters.

____________________

Stillow:

Yes but the constitution requries the g'ment to run the armed forces as part of our defense......g'ment does run its legit functions well...the thigns its supposed to run are ok....its the enttielemnts it is lousy at. We ar ebeing bankrupted by hand outs. Our moral obligation is to make sure everyone has equal opportunity in this country...our moral obligation is to make sure the playing field is level. I don't mind helping people out who need it....I don't mind providing some way for people without insurance to ge tit, but I am NOT willing to simply turn that over to g'ment. G'ment is more corrupt than any business....a private secotry solution should be found....not a g'ment take oever.....cus as has been talked about, the g'ment cannot run anything outside of its reuqired functions.

____________________

Xenobion:

Its a simple divergence of priorities Stillow. Most conservatives have absolutely no issue with people who are uninsured. They just simply do not care. Democrats will probably end up raising prices with HCR but its a price worth preventing people dying in our streets every day, especially in this time where people who can't get healthcare because they are unemployed. If anything we've seen how employment based healthcare fails during recessions/depressions.

____________________

ChicagoKid:

Well if we bring morality into the argument there are a lot of other things that we could say are morally unacceptable, such as genocide worldwide, abortion for many, and earth degradation among others. I think genocide is a more important moral thing then health care, but I know we can't go around the world stopping all of it. I just the morality arguement is too slippery.

I don't want people dying in the streets, but people are always going to be missed with healthcare. But with free market reforms you can reign in prices and allow for more people to get coverage while 85 percent of people who have healthcare can get affordable coverage.

____________________

Xenobion:

If you believe the current system can be salvaged, I welcome your input ChicagoKid. If Colleges will cover students, McDonalds and Starbucks cover all their workers, and I can buy health insurance like I do car insurance then i'll buy into that system. Call me skeptical that I doubt people can afford that system.

____________________

Stillow:

X - that is just not true. Conservatives are far more compassionate than libs are. I promise you I give more to charity than most of you combined on this site.....

I would 100 percent favor a new tax to provide vouchers to people togo out and buy private plans.......this isn't about caring...its about whats right...and letting g'ment take over my life is not acceptable. It is libs who don't care, its about politics for them, its about the soundbite for them. I would be first in line to pay a new tax to provide vouchers.....but I am last in line to allow g'ment to get invovled, destory the greatest system in the world and further bankrupt our nation.

____________________

Stillow:

Its very simple X....polling shows 80 - 85 percent of people are happy with there private plans....so the answer should be to extend those highly liked private plans to everyone else....just give them a voucher to pay for it....and then do some minor reform like pre existing conditons, etc....and walla, you'd have a highly popular insurance system....and a coucher program would cost us pennies to the dollar on what they want to spend now doing a g'ment takeoever. If you want health care run like the irs or dmv, then I guess your just a lost cause.

____________________

Xenobion:

Our current health care system is run like an Oil Cartel, few companies making all the decisions, price fixing plans, no real competition. Its quite anti-capitalist actually. Its terrible for the consumer more. I'd say most people are happy with their plans because they have them. Ask the 35 million people how happy they are not having health insurance I'd say it might be 99% unhappy? The government already controls your life, you think Healthcare is the new brink of taking over everything? heh whatever.

Anyways, congratz on charity Stillow, how many necessary surgery's did you donate?

____________________

Stillow:

First, the 35 million number is not true. About 15 - 20 million of the unisnured do so because they do not want to spend the money even though they have it. These are usually young single people with cash to burn. I also don't count illegals....you genuinely have about 15 million who are genuinely uninsured. As I said, I would support a new tax specifically to fund vouchers so those people can go buy private plans that fit them the best.

There are several conservative ideas that will also lower costs for everyone. Crack down on bonehead lawsuits. Allow small businesses to pool together for a large negotiating base. Allow carriers to sell across state lines.

X, I know being a liberal you will always put your faith in g'ment first....but do you realize they laugh at people like you? Pelosi and these other power hungry libs just laugh. They are living the high life on your dime.

you can buy a very nice private plan for about $200 a month....a really good family plan for $500 a month. A voucher system woudl be perfect. Let these people shop and buy the best plan for them.

Go to companies who currently do not offer health benefits and tell them you will give them tax cuts if they use the savings to give there employees benefits....99 percent of them would do it.

You ar emaking the classic liberal fatal error, thinking with your heart which clouds your logic.

G'ment is not the anser my freind.

____________________

Xenobion:

People's blind faith in the free market ultimately leads to their marginalization. There is a delicate balance my friend. Without government, life would be nasty, brutish, and short in the words of Thomas Hobbes. Politicans are a necessary evil and I'm a pragmatic skeptic and you should be too with your own party. I'd take a laughing liberal making money benevolently using the government to better people's lives over a crass Conservative that provides tax breaks to the most elite, wealthy people in the Country to maintain the good ol' boy's club of maximum profits at any cost. They're both laughing, just which one is less evil?

Tax cuts would add to the deficit and would not be fiscally savy.

Voucher system? I don't even know what that means but its gonna have to cost money and that money is gonna have to come from somewhere. How much does it cost to insure 30 million people?

You cannot buy a nice private plan for 200 a month, hell COBRA care is like 600 dollars a month which is almost rent for people.

____________________

Stillow:

I had a perosnal blue cross plan for years, $215 a month...great little plan.

Well, it appears we have simply gone in a circle....as lib you put g'ment first, as a conservative I put the individual first.

I'll never understand why you enjoy living on your knees at g'ment't feet. It was the people who made this country great, who make it work. 15 million who need insurance could easily get it thru a simple voucher program....very very simple.

I hope you realize people like me won't be around foreve rto pay all your bills. At some point you will have to take care of yourself....I can not always do it for you.

You can only rob peter to pay paul for so long, eventually you bankrupt peter too. Liberalism is nothing more than the equal distribution of misery.

Just remember, liberalsim only works when ther eis a conservative majoirty to pay for it!!!

____________________

obamalover:

@Stillow

Conservatives paying for it... Bwhahahaha!!! that is absurd, conservatives pay for nothing.

According to this analysis (page 2) the biggest recipient states of federal dollars are red states, and the biggest donors of tax dollars are blue states (your welcome). Too bad reality isn't consistent with your delusions.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/sr139.pdf

____________________

ChicagoKid:

Xeno
Most colleges do cover students... I can be covered by my university if I would like but I am still on my dads plan that he pays far too much for. Starbucks and McDonalds could offer plans in a competitive system where you actually can buy cheap insurance. Health insurance should be like car insurance, they should be running commercials saying why they want us. At least with the system we have we can still have choice, there just need to be changes to actually make it capitalistic. The system is set up to screw us and thats from years of government interference. If the bill is passed it will just be a swap, one bad system of corruption and bueracracy for another. Except it will turn out worse with bigger deficits and our choice will go down. Also I think, Party association is becoming such a thing of the past, It is going out the door for good reason.

Good study Obama, except that is not what it proves. It shows red states who receive more tax dollars have better politicians who get the dollars for their states. While blue states in the north tax too much and then have huge deficits and are on the brink of bankruptcy in some cases. In Illinois we are over taxed, have to pay too much for education, and never get the quality of service we pay for.

____________________

ChicagoKid:

Granted the University coverage isn't very good but your covered for most things.

____________________

obamalover:

@Chicagokid

Are you for real? The Dems are in control of Congress. Did you know that? If anyone is getting pork for their state it would be Dems. You assertion is completely illogical.

The reason why red states are the biggest recipients of federal dollars is because the hillbillies that live on those states are taking advantage of entitlement programs that they bash all the time. Hypocrites.

____________________

Stillow:

Maybe next year you guys can pay my tax bill then..................then come tell me I am not paying for your entitlement crap. All I do is pay taxes...and pay bills for other people. I get to turn on the news and see mroe of my money go bail some idiot out who bought to much house....or help some moron buy a car with my money. I paid enough in taxes last you to make the dead roll over inthere grave.

Tell me I don't pay for it....we fiscal conservatives are paying the bill for everyone.

Like I said, one day you guys will have to learn to actually take care of yourselves and not rely on me to do it for you. All day long I listen to people on my staff tell me why they can't work, excuse after excuse, yet they still want to be paid.

If you libs just put half the effort into actually working for what you want and need instead of bitching about it all day, you'd be much better off. Instead of always coming to steal my money, try making some of your own.

From whom will you take from when we fiscal conservatives aren't there to take from?

____________________

Bigmike:

obamalover:

"The reason why red states are the biggest recipients of federal dollars is because the hillbillies that live on those states are taking advantage of entitlement programs that they bash all the time. Hypocrites."

We call it common courtesy. When someone says "let me give you some money" we say "thank you."

So anyone who qualifies for an entitlement program is taking advantage? Most entitlement programs were brought about by libs. You know what is best for us. You wrote the laws creating the entitlements. Why, without your generosity our kids would be barefoot and illiterate. Or so you tell yourselves. And you want to call us poor Southerners hypocrites for taking the money you rammed down our throats.

Another name for it is common sense. If someone is stupid enough to give you money why not take it. If you want to send me a check every month I will make sure you get my new address should I move.

I expected more of you. Aren't you giving us a helping hand out of the goodness of your heart? That is what you tell us every time you want our votes. Makes a person wonder what else libs are lying about.

____________________

Bigmike:

But this is supposed to be about the Harvard poll.

On every individual issue BO's disapproval numbers are higher than his approval numbers. Does that mean to get reelected his best move would be to do nothing? And with the agenda he has been pushing, I am sure it would be in the country's best interest if he would just do nothing.

____________________

Bigmike:

Did anyone else notice that by 52-48 young adults favor limited or no health care reform over what the Dems are proposing? That is the most significant of all of those numbers, in my not so humble opinion.

____________________

obamalover:

@Stillow

Like I just pointed out to you. Red staters are the biggest recipients of federal tax dollars. Maybe you are not on medicaid or whatever, but your fellow red staters are. And that is a fact. So if anyone is taking anyone's money according to the stats it is fiscal conservatives from fiscal liberals.

____________________

ChicagoKid:

FIscal Liberals? The states in your study that have the lowest fed receipts are all broke.... If someone gives you money you take it.

____________________

RaleighNC:

Ah...youth is wasted on the young. They'll grow up to be conservatives...well..most of them anyways.

____________________

obamalover:

@RaleighNC

I know more people who were Conservative in their youth and are now liberal.

____________________



Post a comment




Please be patient while your comment posts - sometimes it takes a minute or two. To check your comment, please wait 60 seconds and click your browser's refresh button. Note that comments with three or more hyperlinks will be held for approval.

MAP - US, AL, AK, AZ, AR, CA, CO, CT, DE, FL, GA, HI, ID, IL, IN, IA, KS, KY, LA, ME, MD, MA, MI, MN, MS, MO, MT, NE, NV, NH, NJ, NM, NY, NC, ND, OH, OK, OR, PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VT, VA, WA, WV, WI, WY, PR